Auberins pid programming problem with T=-121

[Truman42]

Howdy gents,

I've programmed by Auberins pid for a step mash but have a problem with my last step T=-121

My last few steps are this

C09 77 T09 -40. Set alm 2 and go to step 10
C10 77 T10 1 hold alarm for 1 min
C11 77 T11 -162. Alm 2 off and go to step 12
C12 77 T12 -121. STOP

However when I reach step 12 the pid goes into hold mode but the element stays on.

If I had an extra step like this


C09 77 T09 -40. Set alm 2 and go to step 10
C10 77 T10 1 hold alarm for 1 min
C11 77 T11 -162. Alm 2 off and go to step 12
C12 77 T12 1
C13 77 T13 -121

Then the pid reaches step 13 and stops. Anyone know why the extra 1 min step at C12 will cause the pid to stop at C13 but won't in the first example?

 

[Truman42]

Bump..Any expert pid programmers out there???

 

[kymba]

Have you tried emailing Auber directly? I have found them to be rather prompt with their replies

 

[Cocko]

Truman, I have mine programme to step mashing but it looks nothing like that?!?

WTF are the negative numbers about?

 

[Truman42]

@ Cocko negative numbers execute operation commands such as t=0 puts the pid in hold mode, but negative numbers do other commands.. Read 3.7 on page 2 of the supplemental manual.

A=1 switch on al2
A=2 switch on Al1
A=3 switch on al1 and al2
A=4 stop the instrument (B must be set to 1)
A=5 switch off alarm 2
etc etc

you use the equation txx = -(A*30+ B ) Where B is the next step. So at C09 I have

C09 77 t09 -39 (Switch on alm 2 and jump to step 10 ) - (1*30+10) = -40
C10 77 T10 1 (hold alarm for 1 minute)
C11 77 T11 -162 (Alm2 off and go to step 12) -(5*30+12) = -162
C12 77 T12 -121 Stop

But it wont stop instead it goes into hold and the element stays on. But if I add an extra line like this

C09 77 t09 -39 (Switch on alm 2 and jump to step 10 ) - (1*30+10) = -40
C10 77 T10 1 (hold alarm for 1 minute)
C11 77 T11 -162 (Alm2 off and go to step 12) -(5*30+12) = -162
C12 77 T12 1 (run at 77 for i minute)
C13 77 T12 -121 Stop -(4*30+1) = -121 B must always be set at 1 when using A=4 Stop the instrument

Then it stops and the element switches off. If I forget about it and don't hear the alarm I want it to stop and not keep mashing out at 77C.

I can always leave in the extra 1 min run step but thought maybe Im doing something wrong. Perhaps the Pid doesnt like 2 process commands in a row and thats why I need the extra line.

@Kymba...No havent emailled Auberins yet as I thought someone here may have come across this before. Will give that a crack...Thanks gents

 

[Crusty]

I didn't do any negatives either when running my Rims.
Mine looked like this.

[SIZE=10.5pt]C1: 55, t1: 5 ( mash in ) – holds 55deg for 5mins[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]C2: 55, t2: 10 ( protein rest ) – holds 55deg for 10mins
C3: 55, t3: 11 ( ramp time from 55 to 66 – 1degC per minute )
C4: 66, t4: 60 ( sacc rest time )[/SIZE]
C5: 66, t5: 12 ( ramp time from 66 to 78 – 1degC per minute )
C6: 78, t6: 10 ( mash out ) – holds 78deg for 10mins
[SIZE=10.5pt]C7: 78, t0 ( end of programme )[/SIZE]

 

[Truman42]

@ Crusty..... 0 should, unless Im mistaken, just hold it at the set temp. -121 will actually stop the pid firing the element. So if I went out for 10 mins and got delayed the program would stop and the pid would shut the element off.

The other negative commands Im using are to switch on my alarm for 1 minute to tell me that the mash out has finished. So if Im away from the brew, and I hear the alarm I know its time to transfer.

Its not needed but often when I brew Im doing other things so wanted the alarms to tell me when shes done.

Also if you set
Hy -1 = 9999
Hy -2 = 1
Hy = .1

You can set all of your ramp times to 1 minute and not worry about your degress per minute ramp time as the pid wont start the timer until the next temp is reached regardless of how long or quick it takes. (Read 3.2 Program ramp on page 1 of the supplemental manual)

EDIT: Yeh as Cocko just said....

 

[Cocko]

So, you are running an alarm? As in an audible warning of some sort?

Mine is similar to Crusty's but Ramp times set to 1 : If you have your HY-1 and HY-2 set to 1, then you your 'ramp times' will be controlled by once you hit the temp of the next step.

Otherwise, alarm control - sorry, no tips.




Edit - posted while you were...

 

[Truman42]

So, you are running an alarm? As in an audible warning of some sort?

Actually Im not yet as its still on order from ebay but yeh a small 22mm LED with built in buzzer.

 

[Cocko]

Cool mate, was just trying to relay the HY setting and the ramp time set to 1 thing... but it seems you have your head, well and truly around it.

Cheers!

 

[TSMill]

Actually I think you will find the program will jump straight to the next step after 1 minute regardless of temp with that setup, as you are always within the hysteresis band. Not sure about why it won't stop....personally I prefer the temp to hold indefinitely at mash out rather than start cooling.

 

[Truman42]

Actually I think you will find the program will jump straight to the next step after 1 minute regardless of temp with that setup, as you are always within the hysteresis band. Not sure about why it won't stop....personally I prefer the temp to hold indefinitely at mash out rather than start cooling.

I've already tested it. After 1 minute the timer doesn't start the next step but holds until the next steps temp is reached. Then the timer starts on the next step. I even took it to the extreme by turning off my element. 10 mins later the next step still hadn't started, until it reached the correct temp of the next step.

I suppose the question is at the end of mash out say I was doing something and lost track of time or didnt hear the alarm, or went to the shops and got held up, which is better. That mash out temp is held for the next 10-15-25 mins or that the element is switched off and it's allowed to cool down????
(Honest question as I don't know which is the better option?)

Extreme examples I know, but I've never had to worry about it as I've usually just set the timer for 5 minutes on the last step so I'm there anyway. Using a pid with set and forget frees me up to do other things so I'm just making sure if I miss the final step it won't be a problem.

I will email Auberins to see what they say but my guess is you can't have two processes in a row.

 

[Cocko]

Just 0 mash out temp and hold it until you are ready IMO. Cant see why you would want to let it cool down? Also, your sparge water will have the heat taken from it if you mash has cooled and you will not be sparging at desired temps either..

2c - Hold Mash out as long as you need.


BTW:
My program looks like this:




Cheers

 

[TSMill]

Won't let me edit, but disregard re. the ramping, it will work as stated.

 

[Truman42]

Just 0 mash out temp and hold it until you are ready IMO. Cant see why you would want to let it cool down? Also, your sparge water will have the heat taken from it if you mash has cooled and you will not be sparging at desired temps either..

2c - Hold Mash out as long as you need.


BTW:
My program looks like this:

Screen shot 2013-07-11 at 6.59.51 PM.png


Cheers

Good point about the sparge water Cocko, never considered that.

I have a 0 pause step at start up so once I mash in I can then go to step 2 and start the mash.

I was also going to use a water flow control switch to isolate power to the pid so if I ever stop my pump (stuck sparge, or other reasons) my Herms won't start to boil due to lack of flow past the probe. I've had this happen in the past where I've stopped the pump but forgotten to turn off the Herms and next minute I have boiling water coming out of the Herms vent hole.

 

[sponge]

Out of curiosity, is it possible to set the output of the Auber PIDs to be ON for a set time (or % output), then stop the program using t=-121?

I've currently got my RTD probe on a tee on the outlet of my 1V recirc with the other end of the tee going to the pump. I was hoping to have my normal step mash program, then once the mash is finished I can turn off the pump and close the outlet valve (bypassing the RTD) and just have the PID keep the relay energised, then after a 75min boil (say 15min for ramp to boil, with a 60min boil), the PID can be stopped using -121.

I thought I read of some PID controllers being able to manually output a % power value to bypass the temperature reading from the RTD and just output a particular power but can't find anything on the Auber PIDs for this.

It would be nice to automate the brew day even further by having the normal mash using the RTD, boil with output % bypassing the RTD (as the outlet valve would be closed) and then stop automatically after the boil.


EDIT: I'm pretty sure the chugger pump I use could handle being ran throughout the boil so could just continue using the PID for temp-based output control and set the temp to whatever it needs for a rolling boil (say 98'C), but just feel it would be better on the pump to limit use with recirculating boiling wort for extended periods.

 

[seamad]

i use this one for bk # 2451
http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SWA-24x1%20v1.pdf

Have never used the timer though and use it on manual mode . Not sure if it works though without the RTD probe being plugged in.

 

[sponge]

Sorry, I should've stated I'm using the SYL-2352P so wouldn't be getting any additional gear for my setup.

And I'd keep the RTD probe plugged in the whole time, but there wouldn't be any flow past the probe as the outlet valve would be closed. It was more to see if I could either just hold the output ON (and can control my elements using a voltage regulator), or output a % power to allow a rolling boil, thus not having the RTD reading affect the output.

 

[seamad]

Dont think you can % output with the 2352p ( Haven't tried though ). With the 2451 it would work how you wanted, doesn't matter what the temp is, run mine at 100% to get to boil then adjust down as required.

 

[sponge]

That would explain why I thought it had that functionality, but clearly was for a different Auber PID.

Looks like I'll have to suffer without for now..