Another Please Help With Clone Recipe Thread

[manticle]

Copied and pasted from the vic xmas in july case swap thread

tried a young's special london ale yesterday and was very impressed with how delicious and spicy it was. Up there with some fine tripels in my estimation.

I may have a go at brewing something along these lines. Their website tells me marris otter and crystal malt, hopped with fuggles and goldings and dry hopped with goldings and target. 6.4%

It has enough maltiness and enough dryness so I'm guessing I should try and make it finish between 1012 and 1016 so and OG up in the high 60s. I may try and get hold of some more bottles and culture the yeast (bottle conditioned) but otherwise would anybody have any WY suggestions?

Any tips on IBU would be fantastic and appreciated too.

Just to delineate - there's young's special which is a draught beer and not the one I tried.

I have found there is a clone in byo magazine - haven't seen the recipe itself http://www.byo.com/stories/recipes/article...yo-recipe-index.

I also found this recipe on homebrewtalk but no feedback about it - ingredients list looks in line with what I know but no idea about OG, IBU or proportions and still have to convert to metric :

All-Grain (19 Litres)

12lb 3oz Maris Otter Malt
15oz Crystal Malt
7 AAU Fuggles Hops - 60 min
2.5 AAU Goldings Hops - 15 mins
0.5oz Goldings Hops - 0 mins
0.25oz Goldings Hops - Dry Hop
0.25oz Target Hops - Dry Hop
Wyeast 1318 (London Ale III) Yeast

Any suggestions?

Cheers

PS: looking for full mash recipe

 

[Screwtop]

Recipe: Youngs Special Clone

Batch Size: 19.00 L
Boil Size: 24.59 L
Boil Time: 90 min
Estimated OG: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.47 %
Estimated Color: 9.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.2 IBU
Bitterness Ratio: 0.758
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %


Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.56 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (Grain 91.05 %
0.35 kg Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 8.95 %
15.00 gm Target [11.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
22.00 gm Fuggle 2006 [4.50 %] (90 min) Hops 15.6 IBU
22.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (90 min) Hops 17.3 IBU
15.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
Starter 2L London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) Yeast-Ale


Mash: Infusion

90 min Saccharification Rest/Mash in Add 9.7 L of water 66.0 C

Notes:
Remove 2L of wort from the kettle prior to adding hops, boil to reduce to 300ml and return to kettle.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[manticle]

Hi Screwy. That looks great, thanks.

I'm assuming if I want to nudge the 6.5 abv mark I should retain the same malt ratio but just up it to hit 1065 and do a bit of BU/GU adjustment to the hopping? I may tweak the recipe a little but that's exactly what I was chasing.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

OK:

based on your recipe screwy, I've come up with the following to bring it in line with the bottled special london ale. Thoughts and criticisms welcome.

Young's special London ale clone attempt:

English Strong (Extra Special) Bitter
Type: All grain
Size: 22 liters
Color: 16 HCU (~10 SRM)
Bitterness: 36 IBU
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.012
Alcohol: 6.2% v/v (4.9% w/w)
Grain: 5.5kg Simpson's Marris Otter (TF doesn't seem to be available from my regular supplier)
500g JW crystal 50-60L
Mash: 70% efficiency, 66 degrees, 90 minutes
Boil: 90 minutes SG 1.044 30 liters
Hops: 25g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 90 min.)
25g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 90 min.)
20g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 10 min.)
Dry Hop: 10g target in secondary for 7 days
10g East Kent Goldings 7 days

3 L starter WY 1318 (London Ale III)
Mash 66-67
Caramelise 2 L wort (reduce to 300 mL) and add back to boil.

 

[aaronpetersen]

OK:

based on your recipe screwy, I've come up with the following to bring it in line with the bottled special london ale. Thoughts and criticisms welcome.

Young's special London ale clone attempt:

English Strong (Extra Special) Bitter
Type: All grain
Size: 22 liters
Color: 16 HCU (~10 SRM)
Bitterness: 36 IBU
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.012
Alcohol: 6.2% v/v (4.9% w/w)
Grain: 5.5kg Simpson's Marris Otter (TF doesn't seem to be available from my regular supplier)
500g JW crystal 50-60L
Mash: 70% efficiency, 66 degrees, 90 minutes
Boil: 90 minutes SG 1.044 30 liters
Hops: 25g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 90 min.)
25g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 90 min.)
20g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 10 min.)
Dry Hop: 10g target in secondary for 7 days
10g East Kent Goldings 7 days

3 L starter WY 1318 (London Ale III)
Mash 66-67
Caramelise 2 L wort (reduce to 300 mL) and add back to boil.

I'm going to try an extract version of this recipe this weekend by replacing the Maris Otter with LLME. Would any particular brand of extract be more suitable? I can choose between Coopers, Morgans and Black Rock brands.

 

[dans6401]

I have a recipe that suggests using Muntons extra light dry malt.
Haven't brewed it myself but will be doing so shortly.
For 18.9 Litre
285g Torrified Wheat
255g British Crystal Malt
3.4kg muntons Extra ldme
57g Malto dextrin
57g Ek goldings @ 60 min
28g Fuggles @ 60 min
28g EK goldings @15 min
1 tsp Irish moss @15 min
28g EK goldings @1 min
Wyeast 1028 London Ale

 

[aaronpetersen]

3 L starter WY 1318 (London Ale III)

Is there a dry yeast that is remotely similar? Danstar Nottingham or Windsor perhaps??

 

[aaronpetersen]

I have a recipe that suggests using Muntons extra light dry malt.
Haven't brewed it myself but will be doing so shortly.
For 18.9 Litre
285g Torrified Wheat
255g British Crystal Malt
3.4kg muntons Extra ldme
57g Malto dextrin
57g Ek goldings @ 60 min
28g Fuggles @ 60 min
28g EK goldings @15 min
1 tsp Irish moss @15 min
28g EK goldings @1 min
Wyeast 1028 London Ale

Can you steep torrified Wheat, or does it need to be mashed?

 

[Bribie G]

Is there a dry yeast that is remotely similar? Danstar Nottingham or Windsor perhaps??

Most likely Windsor, being a yeast from the London area of the UK. Why not use the liquid yeast? The few more dollars upfront can easily be recouped by using the yeast for several generations.

 

[aaronpetersen]

Most likely Windsor, being a yeast from the London area of the UK. Why not use the liquid yeast? The few more dollars upfront can easily be recouped by using the yeast for several generations.

The weather is starting to cool down here in the south, which, for me, heralds the start of lager season. I wouldn't use the yeast again for at least 6 months, and more likely 9 months. Can I store the reclaimed slurry for that long?

 

[dans6401]

Can you steep torrified Wheat, or does it need to be mashed?

This recipe says steep with crystal in 3.8 litres at 65.5c for 30 mins.

 

[manticle]

Is there a dry yeast that is remotely similar? Danstar Nottingham or Windsor perhaps??

Bribie's suggestion is probably worth following (myself I'm not sure). Otherwise you could try reculturing from a bottle or two of young's. It is bottle conditioned - I'm not 100% on the strain.

This is in secondary at the moment, about to be dry hopped.

I threw some target into the boil too as it seemed odd dry hopping with it but not including it in the original. Tastes so far like my memory of young's - has a nice citrus spice to it.

As for torrified wheat - it does need to be mashed but I'm pretty sure it needs to be mashed with base malts with surplus diastatic power so the crystal won't cut it. However I doubt the wheat is necessary - Young's claim they use crystal and marris otter only so all you need to do is replace the marris otter with pale extract. I reckon any pale will do it but from first tastes I would definitely recommend getting a hold of some target hops and adding them to that recipe.

Something like:

3.5 kg pale DME
500g light crystal

Steep cracked crystal, drain liquid into 9 L water. Add 1 kg DME, bring to boil, add 20-25g each fuggles and EKG, boil for 50 minutes, add 20 g EKG and 20g target and remaining DME, boil a further 10 minutes, chill to 20-25 degrees, top up with 10 - 12 L pre-boiled water (or tap water if you're happy with it). After primary winds down, dry hop with another 20g each of EKG and Target. You will probably need at least a 15 L pot and watch it when it hits the boil as it will boil over if too hot.

Forget the maltodex and torrified as you will (should) get plenty of body and dextrins from the crystal and the hops will help with head retention.

I just made that recipe up and haven't run the exact numbers but it should come close to the AG recipe above. Gravity of the boil will be between 1040 and 1050 so hop utilisation will be good.

 

[aaronpetersen]

Bribie's suggestion is probably worth following (myself I'm not sure). Otherwise you could try reculturing from a bottle or two of young's. It is bottle conditioned - I'm not 100% on the strain.

This is in secondary at the moment, about to be dry hopped.

I threw some target into the boil too as it seemed odd dry hopping with it but not including it in the original. Tastes so far like my memory of young's - has a nice citrus spice to it.

As for torrified wheat - it does need to be mashed but I'm pretty sure it needs to be mashed with base malts with surplus diastatic power so the crystal won't cut it. However I doubt the wheat is necessary - Young's claim they use crystal and marris otter only so all you need to do is replace the marris otter with pale extract. I reckon any pale will do it but from first tastes I would definitely recommend getting a hold of some target hops and adding them to that recipe.

Something like:

3.5 kg pale DME
500g light crystal

Steep cracked crystal, drain liquid into 9 L water. Add 1 kg DME, bring to boil, add 20-25g each fuggles and EKG, boil for 50 minutes, add 20 g EKG and 20g target and remaining DME, boil a further 10 minutes, chill to 20-25 degrees, top up with 10 - 12 L pre-boiled water (or tap water if you're happy with it). After primary winds down, dry hop with another 20g each of EKG and Target. You will probably need at least a 15 L pot and watch it when it hits the boil as it will boil over if too hot.

Forget the maltodex and torrified as you will (should) get plenty of body and dextrins from the crystal and the hops will help with head retention.

I just made that recipe up and haven't run the exact numbers but it should come close to the AG recipe above. Gravity of the boil will be between 1040 and 1050 so hop utilisation will be good.

Thanks Manticle. I read somewhere that Young's use a different conditioning yeast to their fermenting yeast, which is why I didn't just make a starter from the bottle I had yesterday. If anyone can prove otherwise I'll happily buy another bottle to make the starter from. I wonder what I should do with all the brown liquid that also comes in the bottle?
What about caramelising part of the pre-hopped wort? Does it make a big difference? Would I use 2L of the crystal and DME wort (before hops are added) and boil that down to 300 mL?

 

[Screwtop]

Danstar Nottingham and Windsor are yeasts strains that are poles apart. Would never use Windsor in a brew over 1.040 unless you like low ABV beers with lots of residual sweetness. Windsor usually only achieves around 62%AA unless sucrose is added, good for low gravity bitters, leaves a bit of body to bitter agains. Nottingham is a good attenuator and flocculator can be as high at 82%AA in wort without sucrose added, but generally around 85%AA.

Cheers,

Screwy

PS: Sorry Manticle only saw your reply here tonight. Hope the beer turns out well.

 

[manticle]

Thanks Manticle. I read somewhere that Young's use a different conditioning yeast to their fermenting yeast, which is why I didn't just make a starter from the bottle I had yesterday. If anyone can prove otherwise I'll happily buy another bottle to make the starter from. I wonder what I should do with all the brown liquid that also comes in the bottle?
What about caramelising part of the pre-hopped wort? Does it make a big difference? Would I use 2L of the crystal and DME wort (before hops are added) and boil that down to 300 mL?

I've done a bit of caramelising of wort and find that it does make a difference in the taste. However for an extract version I'd either try making an extra bit of wort with dme and water or just not worry.


As for the yeast - I can't say. I reckon a beer like that would condition with the same yeast but it's a hunch based on nothing. The London ale is a good top cropping yeast so you could use the lot and skim some of the krausen straight into a fermenter sitting next to it ready to go. If you have a second fermenter just buy a tin of coopers stout and inocculate with the krausen from the first. Soup ladle, cleaned and sanitised, open lid, scoop and add, close both lids and watch what happens.

Not the most scientific pitching method but I've made some delicious beers using this method. Using the right yeast does make a difference.

@Screwy - cheers. Tastes pretty good at the moment. Just waiting for the bloody krausen to die down so I can dry hop. That yeast is a monster.