American Brown Ale 2.0 - Post VicBrew - Feedback appreciated

[syl]

So after VicBrew the BJCP judges gave me very solid feedback, they loved the appearance and body in particular (copper/brown, tan head w/ good retention)

But I lost most of my points on some taste elements

• A little cloying
• Lacking "richness"
• Bittersweet aftertaste with lingering bitterness/resin
• Malt character a bit one dimensional

So I made two major changes to address this, changes to malt bill and hop bill. Leaving the mash profile, etc. the same.

OLD MALT BILL:
Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) 75.0 %
Munich I (Weyermann) 12.0 %
Carafa Special II (Weyermann) 5.0 %
Caramunich II (Weyermann) 5.0 %
Crystal (Joe White) 3.0 %

NEW MALT BILL:
Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) 69.0 %
Munich I (Weyermann) 15.0 %
Caramunich II (Weyermann) 7.0 %
Crystal (Joe White) 5.0 %
Carafa Special II (Weyermann) 4.0 %

OLD HOP BILL:
20.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 9.5 IBUs
20.00 g Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 8.3 IBUs
45.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 12.0 min 8.9 IBUs
45.00 g Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 12.0 min 7.9 IBUs

NEW HOP BILL:
15.00 g Tomahawk [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min 12.9 IBUs
45.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 12.0 min 8.9 IBUs
45.00 g Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 12.0 min 7.9 IBUs



1) Up the Caramel/Crystal malts significantly to 12% (from 8%) up the Munich by 5% and lost some trad ale and 1% of the Carafa Special II
2) Use a bittering hop, Tomahawk, instead of Cascade/Amarillo and lower the IBU's slightly

Was still going to use my same dry hop schedule of .6 g/L each of Cascade and Amarillo.

Thoughts? Will that be enough to adress these comments including the richness, etc?

BSMX attached if you have this.

 

[going down a hill]

Wouldn't upping the crystal add to the cloying issue? If the malt was one dimensional why don't you use Marris Otter instead of JW.

 

[razz]

If you had cloying as well as bittersweet aftertaste then mash profile maybe the one that needs the most attention. Perhaps use a lower mash temp with longer mash time and also look at yeast profile to get a lower final gravity. Perhaps try those before changing your recipe. Except for the "one dimensional malt" comment those comments tell me process, not recipe.
PS, can we see the original recipe?

 

[syl]

Wouldn't upping the crystal add to the cloying issue? If the malt was one dimensional why don't you use Marris Otter instead of JW.

Whoops! Yes, it had cloying circled on a part for body, but nothing else on it in the comments. I was mainly trying to address the richness and astringent issues.

I will probably take the cystals and caramenls back to where they were.

I don't use Marris Otter as I hate it personally, I suppose I could do a half batch and see how it comes out, honestly it had crossed my mind as well!

 

[syl]

If you had cloying as well as bittersweet aftertaste then mash profile maybe the one that needs the most attention. Perhaps use a lower mash temp with longer mash time and also look at yeast profile to get a lower final gravity. Perhaps try those before changing your recipe. Except for the "one dimensional malt" comment those comments tell me process, not recipe.

Sacc rest you mean? Currently at 67 degrees for 45

Using US05 for this at the moment.

 

[razz]

Sorry yes, sacc rest. Longer rest time for that temp and US05 can go to 80% attenuation in my experience.

 

[going down a hill]

Full pint (no affiliation) stock Briess 2row.

 

[manticle]

How can you hate Maris?

Try a blend of munich and vienna with some kind of pale malt, a touch of biscuit or aromatic and your coloured malt, drop the mash temp a tad (or split the sacch rest into 2 - start low for 10-20 minutes, raise high for the remainder) and use bittering hops noted for their clean profile.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I'd cut right down on the number of grains and go with a 90% pale base with a touch of carafa III for colour and some crystal and something 'special' (biscuit, aromatic, amber, something unusual) as a combo. I find that overdoing the grain bill can actually have the reverse effect and make it more 'one-dimensional' and muddy a bit. I used to be a 8-10 grain bill variety brewer and it made my beers worse. I cut this down to 3-4 tops - usually a cara, crystal and then some wheat/rye and a special or 2 colours (and often 2 though it won't cut it for your brown) and it opens up the palate better.

Mash low - 63 degrees. That'll sort out the cloying a bit.

As manticle says, clean bittering addition and then hammer late with a combination of resinous and fruit American hops.

 

[syl]

How can you hate Maris?

Try a blend of munich and vienna with some kind of pale malt, a touch of biscuit or aromatic and your coloured malt, drop the mash temp a tad (or split the sacch rest into 2 - start low for 10-20 minutes, raise high for the remainder) and use bittering hops noted for their clean profile.

Sorry mants!! My mates say this to me all the time too! Probably a discussion for another time, over a beer!

 

[manticle]

Also a yeast like 1272 or denny's favourite.

 

[syl]

Thanks gents!

Thoughts on this bill ?
(note: it's stuff I have)

Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) 69.0 %
Munich I (Weyermann) 15.0 %
Caramunich II 7.0 %
Victory Malt 5.0 %
Carafa Special II (Weyermann) 4.0 %

Mashing profile will be changed according folks!

 

[syl]

Also a yeast like 1272 or denny's favourite.

1272 is my favourite yeast, I will do a split of US05 and 1272 when I brew this updated version, but I am worried it will leave it too fruity/hoppy.

EDIT: I was thinking of using WLP001 and US05 for the next batch.

 

[syl]

Mash schedule:

Protein Rest 50C 30 min
Saccharification 63C 45 min
Saccharification 2 67C 10 min
Mash Out 78C 10 min

 

[manticle]

No real need or benefit for 30 mins at 50. Bump up the temp (52-55) and shorten the rest (5-10). I'd also be inclined to switch the times for the sacch (10-15 mins@63, 40ish@67-9) - my experience of stepping only so work out your tastes and tweak. After 45 minutes at 63 though there won't be much for alpha amylase to get its teeth into. 63 for 45 will give you a dry, well attenuated beer but you will sacrifice body. Doing both rests gives the best of both worlds.

 

[syl]

No real need or benefit for 30 mins at 50. Bump up the temp (52-55) and shorten the rest (5-10). I'd also be inclined to switch the times for the sacch (10-15 mins@63, 40ish@67-9) - my experience of stepping only so work out your tastes and tweak. After 45 minutes at 63 though there won't be much for alpha amylase to get its teeth into. 63 for 45 will give you a dry, well attenuated beer but you will sacrifice body. Doing both rests gives the best of both worlds.

Sweet. Going to take tomorrow off and put this one down!

 

[razz]

Are you putting this into the nationals Syl?

 

[mxd]

I started my brown off jamils Janet brown, had a few tweaks but still love the northern brewer. I use a "good" (what I think is good ) base malt, wheat and Munich to get the malt backbone. I'm in Darwin so cAnt give exact recipe.

 

[Not For Horses]

Hates Maris Otter and loves 1272. Who is this guy!

Denny's Fav is a cracking yeast for malty american ales. Too late now I know but keep it in mind.

 

[Wonderwoman]

• a little cloying
• Lacking "richness"
• Bittersweet aftertaste with lingering bitterness/resin
• Malt character a bit one dimensional

Hey - I actually judged this category and "bittersweet aftertaste with lingering bitterness/resin" sounds like one of my comments - it wasn't intended as a negative criticism!

the BJCP guidelines say:
"...an aftertaste having both malt and hops," ie bitterness and malty sweetness. The aussie guidelines also said something about highly hopped version 'can have a resiny quality' so these are all within style guidelines.