Altbier Inspired Recipe - Feedback Sought

[bluenose]

Ok, so I'm not even sure if I could really call this an Altbier, so call it "Altbier inspired". Just looking for a refreshing German Ale for the summer.

What i'd like an opinion on is the hop combination/timing. I'm not looking for anything too bitter but would like a good hop flavour and aroma. My thinking is the combination of Tettenager & Cascade will give me a nice citrusy & spicy aroma.

As you can probably tell, I'm relatively new at making up my own recipes!

23 litre batch

1.50 kg Morgans Pale Liquid Extract (5.0 SRM)
1.25 kg Morgans Extra Pale Liquid Extract (3.0 SRM)
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
0.50 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
10.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min)
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (30 min)
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (10 min)
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min)
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (5 min)
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days)
25.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days)
10.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate)
1 Pkgs German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029)

(recipe attached in BeerXML)

Any suggestions for fermentation & conditioning? I was thinking of doing a primary at 20c (70 deg f) for seven days followed by a cold secondary at 10c (55 deg f) for two weeks.

I will be bottling this batch - any suggestions as to whether to use corn sugar vs. dextrose? Amounts? Will I need to pitch more yeast when I bulk prime for bottling due to the long cool secondary?

Thanks for any comments.
_________________
Cheers, Peter

View attachment Bluenose_Altbier.xml

 

[ausdb]

Ok, so I'm not even sure if I could really call this an Altbier, so call it "Altbier inspired". Just looking for a refreshing German Ale for the summer.

What i'd like an opinion on is the hop combination/timing. I'm not looking for anything too bitter but would like a good hop flavour and aroma. My thinking is the combination of Tettenager & Cascade will give me a nice citrusy & spicy aroma.

As you can probably tell, I'm relatively new at making up my own recipes!

23 litre batch

1.50 kg Morgans Pale Liquid Extract (5.0 SRM)
1.25 kg Morgans Extra Pale Liquid Extract (3.0 SRM)
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L
0.50 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
10.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min)
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (30 min)
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (10 min)
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (5 min)
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (5 min)
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days)
25.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days)
10.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate)
1 Pkgs German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029)

(recipe attached in BeerXML)

Any suggestions for fermentation & conditioning? I was thinking of doing a primary at 20c (70 deg f) for seven days followed by a cold secondary at 10c (55 deg f) for two weeks.

I will be bottling this batch - any suggestions as to whether to use corn sugar vs. dextrose? Amounts? Will I need to pitch more yeast when I bulk prime for bottling due to the long cool secondary?

Thanks for any comments.
_________________
Cheers, Peter

[post="84797"][/post]​

Perosnally I would just go with the NBrewer and Tettnangs leave the cascades for an american style beer, also dont worry about the dry hopping. As for adding extra yeast if WLP029 is anything like wyeast 1007 you will have no problems with there being enough suspended yeast after only 14 days of conditioning at 10C!!

Cheers

ausdb

 

[bluenose]

Thanks Ausdb.

Sorry if this is a dumb question... but when you say don't worry about the dry hopping, do you mean that the last 5 min addition will give me enough hop aroma?

The last couple batches I have made have been low on hop flavour and aroma so I wanted to fix that deficiency in this brew.

Do you think the Tettenang and Cascade won't go together well?

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Jazman]

i normaly add some of my aroma hops at flame out

 

[bluenose]

I'm curious, how many brews did it take for all of you out there to understand how to determine the right hops and combination/timing in your brews to get the desired effect?

It seems like a bit of a black art to me ... I've read lots of books, but it's still a bit of a mystery. Is there a secret I'm missing or is it just down to experience? (and what an experience it is !!)

Cheers,
Pete

 

[bluenose]

i normaly add some of my aroma hops at flame out

[post="84910"][/post]​

What is the difference between flame-out vs. dry hopping in taste & aroma?

 

[Batz]

Your choice of hops are all wrong , and no hops at flame out and hops at late additions.

All your hops are added at the early stages of the boil , I love Spalt in an Alt

But then what the ...do I know could be a great brew
Best of luck with it

Batz

 

[ausdb]

Thanks Ausdb.

Sorry if this is a dumb question... but when you say don't worry about the dry hopping, do you mean that the last 5 min addition will give me enough hop aroma?

The last couple batches I have made have been low on hop flavour and aroma so I wanted to fix that deficiency in this brew.

Do you think the Tettenang and Cascade won't go together well?

Cheers,
Pete

[post="84905"][/post]​

It was based on you saying you wanted an alt styled beer, therefore its mainly bittering additions with a little bit for flavour and aroma but definately no dry hops. The cascades are just way out of style for an alt. As Batz has said Spalt is the traditional hops for an alt but I really like Tettnangs and dont think they would be too out of place as well as NB I like it for a good all round bittering hop. BUt its really up to you!

 

[Trough Lolly]

Another vote for Spalt hops here...
If you want to make a close representation of the altbier style, you need to look at Spalt hops and munich malt in your grist. Your grain and hop bills look like your making an American pale ale with some Tettnang hops on the side.

I'd use at least 300 Homebrew Units of Spalt (eg 50g of 6%AAU) for an hour in the boil - longer (90mins) if you like to really get the melanoidins out of the grain extract and get a bit more bittering out of the hops. For your first go, perhaps you might want to tame down the bitterness, but if you get hooked on this style, you'll be tossing in 60g+ of spalt to bitter with in no time! Get your hands on some fresh Spalt hops if you want to make an altbier. If you must add aromatic hops to the altbier, your choice, then you might want to toss in 15 to 20g of some more spalt or tettnang or hersbrucker in the last 15 mins of the boil.

Save your cascade for an american pale ale or little creatures clone - get thee to Jayse's skunk fart pale ale thread for more info on that excellent beer.

Altbier is big and robust - plenty of malt flavour from the munich malt and that needs to be balanced by decent hop bittering. This is not a light and delicate koelsch - you're drinking kick ass German Ale son! Grab a stein and hook in!!

Your partial grain bill needs a bit of adjustment to match the alt style - I'd replace at least some of the malt extract with Munich malt - light or dark is your choice depending on how you want your altbier coloured. If you can mash at least a kilo of munich then you're in business. I'd also replace the crystal malt with some Weyermann Caramunich. Yes, it's a cara malt so it doesn't need conversion - steeping is fine, but the end result will be closer to the real thing than generic 60L crystal. Better still is to drop the crystal and caramunich altogether, and replace with more munich malt and add 10% Melanoidin malt or DeWolf-Cosyns Aromatic malt if you can find it - and then you're getting extrememly close to true altbier!!

An interesting sidenote here is that there's no crystal malt in Zum Uerige - a classic altbier from Dusseldorf. The brewmaster is quoted as saying that Zum Uerige has mostly munich malt and "a tiny amount of very dark malt" - presumably Weyermann Carafa. I've tasted excellent examples of altbier with 90% munich and 10% melanoidin malt...

Your choice of yeast is fine - personally, I recommend Wyeast 1338 European Ale yeast...Try not to attenuate the hell out of the beer - it's meant to be full bodied and rich in malt and hops.

An excellent example of the Dusseldorfer Altbier style is provided by Batz (who's probably too shy to say that so I will ):Click here...

Sorry if I read like a Style Nazi, but if you want to make altbier, then you need to use the stuff that altbier is made from. B)
Regarding your question on how we work out these recipes - it's really quite simple; we have a go and if it tastes good, we share our knowledge. Spare a thought for the first person who ate an oyster! :blink:

Cheers,
TL

 

[Bazza]

just looking at this post as I too want to make an altbier STYLE of beer (as I like the look of the description).

TL's reply may have scared bluenose off (only four posts and all on this topic this day 23 Oct). I think it might be cos the replication of a particular beer STYLE is up to the brewer. The beers I brew, for example, might not be up to competition standard (ie they don't meet BJCP definitions) but that doesn't mean anything unless I was entering comps - which I dont.

The choice of words "if you want to make altbier, then you need to use the stuff that altbier is made from" is a nonsense. The brewer can choose to do whatever they want. The altbier STYLE I am going to brew is going to have mostly lager LME (with extra pale LME) plus some roasted wheat for colour, AND I'm going to use green bullet hops. Not really an altbier worth entering in a comp, but who cares? It will probably be a tasty beer nonetheless.

Not all brewers are chasing a beer exactly matching the BJCP guidelines. So 'style nazis' please relax and allow others to experiment yeah?

 

[Stuster]

I guess it depends on why you are using the word altbier. Using that word suggests you are going to make something with rich maltiness, good hop bitterness, clean.

If you use lager LME plus roasted wheat you won't end up with the same malt flavours as if you use a lot of Munich malt.

If you use green bullet, you'll get a very different hop flavour to using Spalt or some other noble.

I'm sure you'll make a tasty beer, but why call it altbier? :unsure:

 

[DJR]

Looks more like an AAA - American Amber Ale.

 

[jayse]

Like stuster I also find flaws in your arguement about 'style' there, lets say there is no such thing as the BJCP and there never has been or will be such a thing or any other organization related to style guidelines. Ok? The beer known as Alt still exists without the BJCP, it is a dry malty bitter munich malt driven beer famous in the brewpubs of dusseldorf.

I'am not trying to put a dampener on anything here just put a different spin on your arguement.

Quiet simply your making a pale ale of sorts with ingredients that you think will work well together but like i said even if you ignore every guideline ever written its still not gunna come close to anything your sit down and get given at a brew pub in dusseldorf which is what the beer is all about.

I don't really care that much about having to brew to exact style either but when you mention words like altbier it automatically means a certain type of beer which this or bluenoses beers are not.

have fun brewing it, enjoy drinking it and call it what you like really.

Happy brewing.
Jayse

 

[warrenlw63]

Not all brewers are chasing a beer exactly matching the BJCP guidelines. So 'style nazis' please relax and allow others to experiment yeah?

Bazza. Not really a style Nazi myself either. OTOH I don't really want to begrudge anybody who is. Taking digs at the style Nazis when it's not needed basically doesn't really make you any better than them. In all reality it's just inverted snobbery. Or put easier it's a bit like an ad or programme on TV if you don't like it just turn it off it's your right but ya don't gotta ring the station and tell them what to show. :lol:

The only way you could deem what you're advocating an Altbier is if Zum Uerige in Dusseldorf decide to throw those ingredients into their mix and serve it as a Sticke Alt. :blink:

Warren -

 

[warrenlw63]

Of course there's always one for the Style Nazis to go into a quiver over.

Pinkus Mueller, made in Munster not Dusseldorf... Altbier, Berliner Weisse or a style on it's own. Mainly wheat malt (around 40%) and IIRC slightly soured.

Always exceptions to every rule.

Warren -