Alpha Acids And Beta Acids

[sicdog1]

Hey there i bought a brewcraft hallertau 50g 3% hop pelets for my first extract brew and am wondering how it is going to effect the overall taste of the brew if it is such a low % hop does that mean it is really only there for aroma in stead if bitterness . Uaa increases with longer boiling times and decreases with higher boil density how will i know what this will be. how much water should i boil the hops in with how much extract?
and should i maybe add another hop to give it more bitterness if so.

reciepe is only simple as far it is my first extract not sure what taste i want to go for though i do tend to like the boags
brand,


20 litre
2 cans black rock 1.5 kg LME Blonde
25g Hallertau 60min
25g Hallertua 15- 5min
Muntons premium gold yeast
ferment 18-24C
age 3 months

cheers sd

 

[kelbygreen]

seems like a low IBU rating I added it up and came out at 6.8IBU and 5.4EBC. gravity could be higher maybe??? OG at 36 and FG at 8

Never done exract and not sure what your aming for but may need to add more hops there and from reading recipes on extract most add 3kg of LME but only seen a few so far

Edit: Also a thing to remember the longer the hops are in the boil the more bitter, around the middle is more flavour (might need correcting) and the end is more aroma

 

[sicdog1]

i dont know how to work out ibu and ebc
a bit confusing for a mechanic who hasnt read a book in 10 years or done math

 

[kelbygreen]

you can download a free trial of beersmith or there is a exel sheet on the forum some where (not sure where)

 

[manticle]

Hey there i bought a brewcraft hallertau 50g 3% hop pelets for my first extract brew and am wondering how it is going to effect the overall taste of the brew if it is such a low % hop does that mean it is really only there for aroma in stead if bitterness . Uaa increases with longer boiling times and decreases with higher boil density how will i know what this will be. how much water should i boil the hops in with how much extract?
and should i maybe add another hop to give it more bitterness if so.

reciepe is only simple as far it is my first extract not sure what taste i want to go for though i do tend to like the boags
brand,


20 litre
2 cans black rock 1.1litre LME Blonde
25g Hallertau 60min
25g Hallertua 15- 5min
Muntons premium gold yeast
ferment 18-24C
age 3 months

cheers sd

Hi sicdog. Your post is a little confusing but I will try to answer what I think you're asking.

First of all you can use any hop, whether low or high aa for bittering or aroma. Some people have preferences one way or another and with many good reasons but you can use them. I have bittered many a brew with low aa noble hops (which hallertau is) and it's come out lovely. With higher aa you may get more bang for your buck and some people consider that bittering hops are just that and any hop will do (the higher the aa, the better). Others believe that even bittering hops add a certain something to flavour etc. I'm in the latter camp. It depends more on what you expect from a brew. To me hallertau for bittering should be fine.

Second - those black rock tins are simply liquid malt extract rather than pre-bittered beer kits right?

If they are, you will probably need a bit more than 25g hallertau@60 , especially if the hallertau is really 3% (mine is about 4.5%) EXCEPT by fiddling with the boil amount and additions of LME in which case you can keep the additions the same and still up the IBU. This is waht you are touching on with your questions about malt/water proportions.

As far as utilisation goes, 1040 wort supposedly is optimum which equates to ~100g dried malt extract to every litre of water. Liquid malt extract needs about 25% more from memory. In a 5 litre boil, using those ingredients you willl get about 6 IBU (as kelby suggested). If you double the boil size to 10 litres you will get about 14 IBU. If you only add one tin of extract to a ten litre boil (add the other one in at the end) you will get 21 IBU which seems much more realistic. I'd aim for 20 -25 at this point until you know where your palate lies and what does what.

I'm also not sure what 15 - 5 means. Are you adding 5 grams at each 5 minute interval or you're just not sure where you're putting the whole 25 g?


Anyway need some clarification to help you further.

 

[kelbygreen]

hmm thats insteresting I never knew you could adjust the IBU with the boil size and extract added. I have mine set to 5lts as I only have a 7lt pot so thats the biggest boil I can have never tried to adjust it. also wondered why brewsmith was giving me a different reading then the exel sheet as for some reason you cannot change the boil size <_< maybe you can if you buy it?? not sure but excel sheet I got from marks home brew seems good

 

[sicdog1]

Hi sicdog. Your post is a little confusing but I will try to answer what I think you're asking.

First of all you can use any hop, whether low or high aa for bittering or aroma. Some people have preferences one way or another and with many good reasons but you can use them. I have bittered many a brew with low aa noble hops (which hallertau is) and it's come out lovely. With higher aa you may get more bang for your buck and some people consider that bittering hops are just that and any hop will do (the higher the aa, the better). Others believe that even bittering hops add a certain something to flavour etc. I'm in the latter camp. It depends more on what you expect from a brew. To me hallertau for bittering should be fine.

Second - those black rock tins are simply liquid malt extract rather than pre-bittered beer kits right?

yes liquid malt extract
i was told by the brew craft guy just to boil the hops in a pot of two litres of water then add to fermenter

If they are, you will probably need a bit more than 25g hallertau@60 , especially if the hallertau is really 3% (mine is about 4.5%). Fiddling with the boil amount and additions of LME you can keep the additions the same but up the IBU.

As far as utilisation goes, 1040 wort supposedly is optimum which equates to 100g dried malt extract to every litre of water. Liquid malt extract needs about 25% more from memory. In a 5 litre boil, using those ingredients you willl get about 6 IBU (as kelby suggested). If you double the boil size to 10 litres you will get about 14 IBU. If you only add one tine of extract to a ten litre boil (add the other one in at the end) you will get 21 IBU which seems much more realistic. I'd aim for 20 -25 at this point until you know where your palate lies and what does what.
not sure i can source a 10 litre pot just yet

I'm also not sure what 15 - 5 means. Are you adding 5 grams at each 5 minute interval or you're just not sure where you're putting the whole 25 g?

sorry yeh not quite sure when to put it in was told between 15 min and 5 min end of boil ad the 25 grams

Anyway need some clarification to help you further.

 

[manticle]

It comes down to the gravity of the wort. If the gravity is too low (not enough malt/sugar in the boil water) or too high (too much) then hop utilisation suffers. You can use the same amount of hops to make a 6 IBU brew or a 20 IBU brew depending on the gravity. Gravity can be altered with both water additions and sugar/malt additions.

However final volume also needs to be taken into account, particularly when doing small extract boils..

 

[kelbygreen]

well to do a 10lt boil you would need a bigger pot as at 10lt it be flush with the top I found a least few inchs is needed from the top so it wont boil over. Id suggest going on the recipe database and look up there filter so it just shows extract brews and then look threw or filter again to a beer you like (IE ales, lagers, stout) Thats what I have done got a few recipes to try from there and once I get used to extract will try brew my own

 

[manticle]

Brewcraft guy is either daft, senile or silly.

If he told you to boil 25g of low aa noble hop in plain water and expected you to get anything other than beer flavoured cordial by adding in 2 lme tins then he should find another job.

Go here:

http://hbd.org/recipator/ (use the speadsheet and click extract brew) and twiddle with the amounts (including boil size and final volume size) until you get the rough figures you want.

You can probably put in half of one tin in the boil pot you have and boil with the hops for 40 mins, add the rest of the hops and boil for a further 210 mins, then add the rest of the malt tins and boil a further 10 mins. Just double check those amounts though - anything under 20 will probably be too sweet, especially using all LME.

 

[sicdog1]

Brewcraft guy is either daft, senile or silly.

If he told you to boil 25g of low aa noble hop in plain water and expected you to get anything other than beer flavoured cordial by adding in 2 lme tins then he should find another job.

Go here:

http://hbd.org/recipator/ (use the speadsheet and click extract brew) and twiddle with the amounts (including boil size and final volume size) until you get the rough figures you want.

You can probably put in half of one tin in the boil pot you have and boil with the hops for 40 mins, add the rest of the hops and boil for a further 210 mins, then add the rest of the malt tins and boil a further 10 mins. Just double check those amounts though - anything under 20 will probably be too sweet, especially using all LME.

cheers manticle thought as much about the seller will have a muck around with the figures appreciate all your help sd.
cheers kelby

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Brewcraft guy is either daft, senile or silly.

If he told you to boil 25g of low aa noble hop in plain water and expected you to get anything other than beer flavoured cordial by adding in 2 lme tins then he should find another job.

Why? - he'll extract the bitterness from the hops perfectly well by boiling them for an hour in water. Better in fact than by boiling them in wort because the pH is closer to optimum for utilisation. Then the extract can simply be added at the end to for a quick sanitise.

 

[manticle]

If that's the case my impression and understanding is completely off. I was under the impression (from reading etc) that optimum hops utilastion occurred when sugar was present and that water was inadequate.

I'm happy to defer to yourself as your experience and knowledge exceeds mine but can you put me (and above posters) straight?

 

[chappo1970]

If that's the case my impression and understanding is completely off. I was under the impression (from reading etc) that optimum hops utilastion occurred when sugar was present and that water was inadequate.

I'm happy to defer to yourself as your experience and knowledge exceeds mine but can you put me (and above posters) straight?

I'm with Manticle here. I was under the impression 1.040 grav wort was the ideal for hops utilisation? As always interested in learning something new.

Chap Chap

 

[bum]

I think (assume) TB is addressing Manticle's implication that there will be little or no bitterness that way. IBU would be highest in a 1000 point wort - that is not to say this is the best way to extract hop character in total of course.

Please correct me if I am wrong, Thirsty.

While discussing this I have been playing with the idea of doing say a 3 litre water boil for bittering hops only along side a regular boil for the other hops for my next IPA. There. I said it.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've never read any brewing text that suggests that extraction is reduced in low, lower or lowest gravity worts. It is reduced in higher gravity worts, and is also affected by the actual amount of total AA you shove into a given amount of wort - and very significantly by pH.

The pH of water being significantly higher than the pH of wort, would act to markedly increase the maximum potential extraction of bitterness from the hops, and also the lack of occurrence of break in a water only boil would mean that the significant amount of iso alpha acids that are absorbed as the break material forms, would stay in solution into the final beer.

There may be a "low point" of sugar density where utilisation starts to go back down again - but its not something I have ever seen mentioned by anyone I would consider really knows what they are talking about. Doesn't mean it isn't here though. Still, I know for a fact (done it) that hops boiled in plain water certainly result in damn bitter water.. so my guess is that any decrease would be more than offset by the increase derived from the higher pH and the lack of break.

TB

 

[ivanhoe]

and also the lack of occurrence of break in a water only boil would mean that the significant amount of iso alpha acids that are absorbed as the break material forms, would stay in solution into the final beer.

TB

TB, not quite sure what you mean about "break"...... can you explain that a little more please? Is it to do with dissolved salts precipitating once they have exceeded their solubility?

 

[manticle]

I've never read any brewing text that suggests that extraction is reduced in low, lower or lowest gravity worts. It is reduced in higher gravity worts, and is also affected by the actual amount of total AA you shove into a given amount of wort - and very significantly by pH.

I think it was a misinterpretation of various things I've read that became 'fact' in my brain. I really should have checked and apologise for any asperions I may have cast upon the LHBS guy.

You know when you those dreams you have where you go to school without any clothes on? That's how dumb I feel.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB, not quite sure what you mean about "break"...... can you explain that a little more please? Is it to do with dissolved salts precipitating once they have exceeded their solubility?

Break is when proteins dissolved in the wort (that come from the grain) get cooked and coagulate to form particles in the boiling wort. Its more or less the same process as an egg cooking; and in fact hot break in your wort looks a lot like what happens when you crack an egg into chicken soup and stir it in (egg drop soup) lots of "flakes" of cooked protein.

It something that you wouldn't see unless you conduct a boil of your wort - boiling extract based wort usually only results in a small amount of break formation, because the extract was boiled by the brewery that made the extract in the first place, so its already happened and the break material has been removed .. but if you make your wort partly or completely from grain, you will see quite a lot of break formed.

 

[manticle]

I think it was a misinterpretation of various things I've read that became 'fact' in my brain. I really should have checked and apologise for any asperions I may have cast upon the LHBS guy.

You know when you those dreams you have where you go to school without any clothes on? That's how dumb I feel.

'asperions' should read 'aspersions'.

'You know when you those dreams' should read 'you know when you have those dreams'.