All Munich dunkel - anyone got advice they wanna share?

[kaiserben]

MHB kinda just touched on this, but maybe could elaborate: What about the tannins? I've always been so worried about extracting tannins with too much heat during the easier types of mashing, so boiling some grains during decotction seems counter-intuative. What's the story there?

 

[MHB]

To my mind its just like making billy tea. Add tea and sugar to cold water heat to a boil, you get a unique rich sweet tea that isn't bitter.
Try the same without the sugar and it will taste like a barbed wire pull-through!
I think the sugar blocks the tannins from coming into solution.

Same in a decoction, you have grist, water, enzymes and you make sweet water, this blocks the husk tannins.
Worth remembering that most of the concerns about extracting tannins are related to sparging, where the sugar concentration is low.
Mark

 

[philistine]

Thanks for taking the time mark, thats a bunch of really good info - in light of which ive decided to pass on the decoction this time 'round. The number one reason being that i just dont have the right kind of set up (ie small mash tun) and i reckon the workaround sounds like a pain in the arse, at least for a first attempt on a brew that i care about getting right.
Maybe after the dunkel ill see if i can get a 4th lager in and ill be less invested and more inclined to experiment.

Btw - this thread really diverged from the original question [emoji41]

Im cool with that tho, but still keen to hear peoples opinions on an all munich malt bill!

 

[bigmunchez]

Just finished my dunkel keg, sorry to see it go. I used 90% best munich 1, 10% weyermann munich 2, 1% carafa special 3. Hochkurz mash. Came out awesome, clean malty flavour but a dry finish. I'd caution against using too much crystal, I personally hate a sweet dunkel. Maybe brew it simple like you originally planned and then tweak from there. Colour wise it came out like

edit: photo didn't work...

 

[manticle]

MHB kinda just touched on this, but maybe could elaborate: What about the tannins? I've always been so worried about extracting tannins with too much heat during the easier types of mashing, so boiling some grains during decotction seems counter-intuative. What's the story there?

I believe pH is a major factor in tannin extraction so boiling the acidic grains and solution will not result in discernible tannin levels. Certainly not an effect I've ever encountered from decocting.

 

[kaiserben]

All-Munich would end up too light in colour. Don't be afraid to add a little carafa. Just enough that you can only barely realise it's there. Not only will that correct the colour, but the discreet roastiness really adds to a dunkel IMO.

98% Muncih malts
2% Carafa Special 2

EDIT:
Having said that, when I created my recipe I found that this was still too light in colour, and not wanting to go overboard with the Carafa, I tweaked it till my colour was where I wanted it (hence ~9% CaraMunich 2 I mentioned earlier).

Some recommend Pils Malt, but that's not going to help colour-wise.

 

[pajs]

Have done a couple of different 100% Munich II beers and they can work quite well, in both malt-forward styles and something with more overt hop and yeast character.

 

[technobabble66]

Slight Hijack: I posted a recipe in the Style of the Week - Munich Dunkel thread.
Suggestions welcome!


For the record, it's:
88% Munich,
4% Aromatic,
3% Melanoiden,
3% Midnight Wheat,
2% Acidulated.
Hall mitt, Select, & EKG roughly equal amounts @FWH to hit 21.5 IBUs.
2 Decoctions planned.


PS: that Style of the Week thread is pretty good for some reading on MDs, if you want to wade through the 8 pages.

 

[rude]

Good thread decoction sounds good

When I do mine first up 50/50 munich 1 & 2 maybe carafa 2 for colour just for starters

Then the decoction with tweaks

 

[thylacine]

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/313493/old-dark-bear

"Old Dark Bear" recipe. 97% Munich, 3% Carafa III

(I like it with 5% Smoked grain)

Cheers

 

[nosco]

I have a heap of Munich 1 that I was going to use for a dunkel. But since no one seems to like the idea of a biab with decoction would a long boil work? Maybe not for colour but for flavour. Manticle suggested a long boil in the 2hr brew thread. So maybe 50/50 Munich 1 & 2 and a long boil?

Edit: I didn't realise that Munich 1 wouldn't be dark enough when I bought it. But I use it a lot in other brews so no problem.

 

[manticle]

Long boil is great with great results (I'd do it with a doppelbock for example) but I have no idea why biab would preclude a decoction or two. Process is the same.

 

[nosco]

Cheers I'll give it a go.

 

[Randai]

I attempted a decoction using BIAB recently on an 95%ish munich 2 alt that went alright. Though I haven't done the recipe without a decoction at this stage so can't tell you if it'd be better or worse.
But give it a crack, it was a lot of fun, also my efficiency shot up by quite a bit. Probably all the stirring.

 

[Adr_0]

I attempted a decoction using BIAB recently on an 95%ish munich 2 alt that went alright. Though I haven't done the recipe without a decoction at this stage so can't tell you if it'd be better or worse.
But give it a crack, it was a lot of fun, also my efficiency shot up by quite a bit. Probably all the stirring.

What wasn't quite right? Water, hops, yeast,an off flavour from fermentation... Or not quite what you were expecting? I would think that would be too bready caramel for an alt.

 

[Randai]

What wasn't quite right? Water, hops, yeast,an off flavour from fermentation... Or not quite what you were expecting? I would think that would be too bready caramel for an alt.

Yeah the dark munich, while a only a few shades darker than the light munich seems a bit too much maltiness at this stage. Maybe with some more time it'll meld a bit better. Probably even the decoction probably lent some more melanoidans to that richness.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kaiser_Alt

Followed this recipe with the exception of the munich 2, but from what I gather an alt shouldn't be as heavy as a dunkel, which I think munich 2 might suite a bit better.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Good reading. This is cooking! Many ways to skin a cat. Or cook a good steak casserole.
I do the the single infusion mash in an esky and batch sparge but my esky mash tun has room to spare. So next time I'll try doing something like the step/deconcoction.
Basically the way I see it is the mash starts off low temps and raises over time to mash out temps. I can start low at 2lt/grain . Then add hotter water.
Drain off some wort and heat and re add.
That's the way I'll wing it.

Or is boiling mashed grains something to be better? That is my question. :icon_drool2:

 

[philistine]

My understanding is that with a decoction you wanna boil the grain itself with as little wort as possible so as to not kill off too many enzymes.
So if your mashing in an un-heated esky and wanna use different temp rests, you have a choice between either boiling the grain and adding it back (decoction) or using boiling water infusions. Draining off wort and heating it would ok but only if it didnt get hotter than mash-out temps.
Further back in this thread mhb was saying that a decoction mash should start at around 3.5l per kg , so 2l per kg is too thick for that method and would better suit boiling water infusions.....

For me, with my mash tun esky being only 19l - the only way to do a 3 step mash is to use boiling water infusions and start with a thick 2l/kg mash.... Theres just not enough space to do a 3.5l/kg mash to suit a decoction.

Anyway, back to grain, im doing it this wknd and there was no munich 1 available so that made the decision to try a 100% munich 2 grain bill that much easier [emoji41]

 

[sstacey]

Having made dunkels with all munich vs more complex grain bills, I definitely prefer recipes with carafa special 2 in it. It gives a darker colour and more chocolatey flavour, which I love in a Dunkel. Without the carafa special I find it a bit plain and one dimensional.