All Grain Spoiling? [no Chiller Method]

[SicOfVic]

Hi All,

I have been a home brewer (kits) for the last couple of years and switched to all grain a couple of weeks ago. I have never really had an issue with my beers getting infected -> I have always used iodophor, and in my umpteen previous batches have only spoiled one.

However, my first two all grain batches are experiencing issues. I sterilised all equipment prior to use -: mash tuns, boilers, fermenters, equipment the usual. So I boil up my all grain beer, let it cool for 20 or 30 mins (using no chiller method) and then empty it to my fermenter, bringing it down to room temperature by putting it in the back bathroom which is always nice and cold.

Beer #1 (boh pils) is giving off a foul odour & I have yet to put yeast in it! There appears to be some action -: the SG has dropped slightly and the bubbler is bubbling? is this meant to happen to wort which has no yeast added?

Beer #2 (belg ale) the yeast (liquid belg abbey ale) was pitched 2 days after boiling, as it had dropped to room temperature. It seemed to ferment as usual. Taste test number 1 today after a week fermenting and it was pretty undrinkable. It almost has that off flavour.

With both beers i have been so careful with the sterilisation -> and since both are bubbling away happily, i believe the fermenters to be air tight. The only thing i can think of that i havent done is not put sterilised water in the bubblers. I never have, to tell you the truth.

Anyone got any suggestions, or am I being paranoid?

 

[tangent]

Beer #1 (boh pils) is giving off a foul odour & I have yet to put yeast in it!

Tell me more about this. And why you're smelling a wort that doesn't have yeast in it yet?

 

[domonsura]

Yeah, this has spiked my curiosity too.....how would you describe the odour?

 

[SicOfVic]

Yeah, this has spiked my curiosity too.....how would you describe the odour?

I would describe the odour as bad
It's hard to describe - it smells similar to an infected beer - but not quite as strong yet. Like it was just starting to take a turn for the worse... i must admit i've never smelt it before in a beer, other than the one i infected. It's hard to describe - not much smells like infected beer!

I first noticed it a day or two ago, when i heard the bubbler going off. That was the whole reason i smelt it -: i just expected the wort to sit there dormant until my yeast was ready.

 

[fixa]

if the water isn't steralised, as the wort cools it may suck air back through the airlock and so ingesting the non-sterile water. maybe that's where the problem comes from?

 

[bonj]

let it cool for 20 or 30 mins (using no chiller method) and then empty it to my fermenter, bringing it down to room temperature by putting it in the back bathroom which is always nice and cold.

20 - 30 minutes doesn't sound like long enough to no-chill to me? I've left mine in the cube overnight before transferring to the fermenter.

 

[SicOfVic]

if the water isn't steralised, as the wort cools it may suck air back through the airlock and so ingesting the non-sterile water. maybe that's where the problem comes from?

Could be an option, and in the future i will ensure it is sterilised. But interesting how i've done this for two years and never had an issue... Coincidence with these last 2 perhaps?

 

[tangent]

20 - 30 minutes doesn't sound like long enough to no-chill to me? I've left mine in the cube overnight before transferring to the fermenter.

my thoughts too

 

[SicOfVic]

20 - 30 minutes doesn't sound like long enough to no-chill to me? I've left mine in the cube overnight before transferring to the fermenter.

Hey Bonj

i was just transfering it straight from the boiler to the fermenter after 30 mins, throwing on the bubbler and chucking it in the back bathroom. I havent read all 50 pages of that thread for a little while - is the usual process cube it for a few hours, then transfer to the primary?

 

[Stuster]

How did you transfer it to the fermenter?

If you are cooling it in the fermenter, I would definitely pitch within 24 hours (or less preferably). If it's taking longer than that, I'd definitely transfer it to a cube while still hot with as little airspace as possible and cap it. That way anything in the cube should be killed off by the heat. If you've left it for a couple of days in a fermenter, with no air in the airlock, I'd say you almost certainly would get an infection.

 

[fixa]

Could be an option, and in the future i will ensure it is sterilised. But interesting how i've done this for two years and never had an issue... Coincidence with these last 2 perhaps?

yeah but didn't you say the last 2 have been AG? therefore the wort would be hotter than you've had it before.....

 

[oldbugman]

The fact it is expelling gas "bubbler going off" without the yeast being pitched says that there is an infection going on.

I have only had one infection, and that was in a no chill cube, I uncapped it one night while pissed and drew off a small sample with an eye dropper for a refractometer reading, placed cap back on tightly. Returned 2 days later to a completely (about to explode) cube, it stank when I oppened it to release the pressure. Ended up tossing it all cube and all.

 

[MVZOOM]

If you have left the wort for two days to cool, without sealing it, you're leaving it prone to wild yeast infection.

No Chill assumes that you will be sealing in a sterilised cube, then un-sealing and pitching.

Cheers Mike

 

[SicOfVic]

If you have left the wort for two days to cool, without sealing it, you're leaving it prone to wild yeast infection.

No Chill assumes that you will be sealing in a sterilised cube, then un-sealing and pitching.

Cheers Mike

Thanks guys

So you are basically saying wort from boiler > fermenter with bubbler = infection
wort from boiler > sealed cube (no bubbler) is ok?

And just so we are speaking the same lingo... a cube can be basically just one of those square plastic water holders?

 

[bonj]

Hey SicOfVic,

I've used fermenters a couple of times, but sealed (no airlock hole). That's worked okay, and a few other guys seem to to that too. I had a Willow 20L jerry, but it didn't seal all that well, so I only used it twice (It got progressively worse).

I've been given a cube (Thanks Browndog!), but I haven't used it yet. I need to put on another brew. My first AG just ran dry.

 

[SicOfVic]

Hey SicOfVic,

I've used fermenters a couple of times, but sealed (no airlock hole). That's worked okay, and a few other guys seem to to that too. I had a Willow 20L jerry, but it didn't seal all that well, so I only used it twice (It got progressively worse).

I think I've always assumed that fermenters with airlock holes & a bubbler with water were sealed! But I guess I am learning they are not the same at all....

I could probably do some searches, but what do most people use to get their best seal? Do kegs work ok?

 

[MVZOOM]

The basic deal is that you want to keep the wort away from air whilst it's not fermenting. At that point it's in it's most easy to spoil as it's un-protected, so the quicker you can get yeast in, the better.

More time = more chance of infection, unless you seal the container with all of the air out.

Cheers - Mike

 

[Screwtop]

Couple of problems as I see things. 1. Should transfer to whatever vessell, cube of fermenter immediately after flame out, you want hot wort to sterilise/pasteurise the receiving vessel. 2. The vessell should be sealed until the yeast is pitched (not airlocked where air will be drawn in as the wort cools and shrinks). If using a fermenter seal up the airlock grommet hole with a bung or something, then pitch when the wort cools to pitching temp and put the airlock in the lid. If using a cube, rack to a fermenter when required and pitch your yeast then fit an airlock.

 

[Kingy]

i think seeing as tho your doing ur first Ag's and to be safe, racking to a cube and squeezing all the air out of it with your knees then putting the lid on would be your safest bet at not letting an infection take hold if your doing "no chill".

i always wait 48 hours just to be super safe that the temp has dropped as i wouldnt be game enough to stick a thermometer in there after 24 hours to check incase it was still a little high.

that way i know after 48 hours its definately in the temp range that my shed gets to and i can empty into the fermenter and add the yeast straight away.

 

[SicOfVic]

Couple of problems as I see things. 1. Should transfer to whatever vessell, cube of fermenter immediately after flame out, you want hot wort to sterilise/pasteurise the receiving vessel. 2. The vessell should be sealed until the yeast is pitched (not airlocked where air will be drawn in as the wort cools and shrinks). If using a fermenter seal up the airlock grommet hole with a bung or something, then pitch when the wort cools to pitching temp and put the airlock in the lid. If using a cube, rack to a fermenter when required and pitch your yeast then fit an airlock.

Thanks screwtop, that sums it up perfectly.
Expensive mistake.
Bah, and i was worried about stuck sparges etc.

I think I will have to invest in some cubes. All my vessels i've drilled holes in (except 1) as i have always had an airlock in my primary/sec fermenters. Fortunately for brew #3 i decided to try something different (brewed it yesterday) and racked it to my only permanently sealed vessel.

So I guess the only thing I need to know now is how long can i leave a brew in a sealed cube before pitching ? obv pitching as soon as it cools would be ideal... but knowing my organisation that always wont be the case....