AHB Wiki: Keg Spear Removal II

[deckedoutdaz]

This is the discussion topic for article: Keg Spear Removal II

 

[deckedoutdaz]

HI all, in relation to the Keg Spear Removal, keep in mind that its soo important to empty all the gas before even thinking about tempting this, the reason that you can not purchase these kegs is because of the dangers involved.

But anyway, if you were going to use these kegs and you aquired them legally somehow, if you put a small cut from a grinder in the top of the spear neck as per photo, its extremely easy to lever out the circlip.

Remember to make sure all pressure is released.

 

[deckedoutdaz]

HI all, in relation to the Keg Spear Removal, keep in mind that its soo important to empty all the gas before even thinking about tempting this, the reason that you can not purchase these kegs is because of the dangers involved.

But anyway, if you were going to use these kegs and you aquired them legally somehow, if you put a small cut from a grinder in the top of the spear neck as per photo, its extremely easy to lever out the circlip.

Remember to make sure all pressure is released.

 

[paul]

If you plan on using one of these replace the snapring with a circlip to make removal easier.

 

[deckedoutdaz]

That again, would be much easier!

 

[Andyd]

That again, would be much easier!

I (would) drill 2 2mm holes in each end of the clip and use circlip pliers to remove and replace the original...

 

[LethalCorpse]

Made a few edits

 

[ausdb]

I (would) drill 2 2mm holes in each end of the clip and use circlip pliers to remove and replace the original...

Sorry to burst your bubble but have you ever tried to drill a hole in spring steel? just go and buy an internal circlip rather than waste drill bits

 

[domonsura]

I wouldn't be grinding any bits out, it's not necessary. I posted the wiki article about this, you don't need to annihilate a keg to remove the spear...I thought the photo tutorial made that obvious....
Replacing the snap ring with a sirclip is a good idea though!

I have re-edited the wiki post to remove what I consider to be silly heavy handed suggestions...PLEASE DO NOT edit that wiki article with recommendations of damaging the keg to remove the sirclip...you have missed the entire point of the post, and that was doing the job without having to damage the vessel.......
If you wish to recommend another process, please list an alternative additional one instead of butchering an article I wrote to clarify a process that DOES NOT NEED A GRINDER....... ......

 

[LethalCorpse]

It's not always possible to remove the circlip without grinding or drilling. Depending on the angle on the end of the clip and the tools available, it can be damn near impossible, because the tool needs to be both extremely small at the tip, and very strong in order to apply enough force. A small, careful notch with the angle grinder doesn't affect the form or function of the keg, and gets the job done quickly and easily.

 

[domonsura]

With all due respect, I disagree. It is ALWAYS possible to do this job without damaging the keg. They are designed to be removed and unless someone has mangled the keg neck, it is always possible.

 

[LethalCorpse]

Well, you're the expert. It may always be possible. But it's definitely not always easy, particularly if you're not an expert. I dunno what tool you're using there (the article doesn't specify), but the only screwdriver I've got which would be small enough to get in there is also too flexible to be useful. Perhaps most people reading the article will be better prepared, but if not, or if they don't care about keeping the keg pristine (particularly if they're about to carve into it and the grinder is already plugged in), the article now shows them both options.

 

[domonsura]

That's fine - I understand where you're coming from ...but please just write another article specifying an alternative procedure for those who don't care about the keg. Please don't butcher mine, as it was intended to show a 'non-damaging' way to do it, and I do not condone damaging kegs......

 

[LethalCorpse]

Three points: First, the article doesn't say anywhere that it's intended to show a non-damaging way to do it. Second, by far the majority of people removing the spear from one of these kegs intend to then cut the top off, thereby damaging it far more than the notch. Third, it's a wiki, not a pulpit. The idea is that any article can be edited by anyone if they feel they can add to the body of knowledge. You might not like to cut a notch, the people who read the article might be happy to, or they might agree with you. They now have both options, and can choose for themselves which is better. If I'd deleted half your article, I'd understand your irritation. Since I've only added further information to it, I don't understand your problem. I note that you're not concerned that I also suggested laying the keg on its side first to avoid a beer shower, or emphasised that the spear unscrews clockwise because it's easy to get that wrong and try to force it the wrong way.

 

[domonsura]

Three points: First, the article doesn't say anywhere that it's intended to show a non-damaging way to do it. Second, by far the majority of people removing the spear from one of these kegs intend to then cut the top off, thereby damaging it far more than the notch. Third, it's a wiki, not a pulpit. The idea is that any article can be edited by anyone if they feel they can add to the body of knowledge. You might not like to cut a notch, the people who read the article might be happy to, or they might agree with you. They now have both options, and can choose for themselves which is better. If I'd deleted half your article, I'd understand your irritation. Since I've only added further information to it, I don't understand your problem. I note that you're not concerned that I also suggested laying the keg on its side first to avoid a beer shower, or emphasised that the spear unscrews clockwise because it's easy to get that wrong and try to force it the wrong way.

You added the clockwise information? Which way am I tapping the pliers in the photo? Your added information was un-necessary as a picture speaks a thousand words...

I am not specifying removal so you can then cut the top out - I made that VERY clear at the beginning of the article. If I was doing that, I would use a plasma cutter/cutting disc after drilling a small hole as it's not necessary to mess with the spear at all if that's what you're going to do.....your method has a very different end result/target audience....

And like I said...if you want to specify a DIFFERENT METHOD......write ANOTHER ARTICLE and put a link in to that article. You edit a wiki article when it's INCORRECT, not just because you feel like it....& sometimes a poorly thought add or un-necessary addition to an article changes the context of the original message which is what I feel you've done with your additions. You've turned a keg spear removal article into a 'butcher your keg/how to illegally modify a keg' article....and I am a retailer... I can't afford to be associated with that kind of bullshit - hence my reaction....there's no pulpit involved at all, I just happen to have a bit of experience in doing the job PROPERLY and wanted to share a way of doing the job that allowed you to be able to put it all back together with no damage.TO CLEAN THE VESSEL.....not rip it open with power tools..but that's fine, you do what you want... I won't bother to share the right way to do something again, since apparently in leiu of that you can do everything with an angle grinder .... :blink:

 

[LethalCorpse]

RDWHAHB there mate. It's not worth grabbing your bat and ball and going home. If you're not happy having your work modified and added to, you should post it on your website, not in a wiki that allows, nay, encourages editing. Nothing I wrote there (or here) should be interpreted as disrespectful of your contribution or your method. The wiki is a collaborative source of information, and this is a discussion. Don't mistake them for graffiti and abuse.

Pictures speak a thousand words, but DIYers can be hasty folk. When presented with something that screws, we assume it undoes counterclockwise, and a photo of it being turned clockwise won't automatically change that, because we know how to unscrew something, and won't look for alternatives unless our attention is drawn to them. Even the word clockwise doesn't immediately change your mind, for the same reason. It's the sort of thing that needs big flashing lights, or can be overlooked. If I was attempting to remove a keg spear, the extra warning would help me. It might help others.

It's not a very different end result, or a very different target audience. The spear is still out, and the target audience is still the homebrewer intending to take the spear out of a keg - whether (s)he then intends to clean it and fill it with beer, or empty it of beer and cut the top off. It's not necessary to remove the spear before cutting the top off, but it may still be desirable, for example if one wishes to use an angle-grinder jig as shown in a video of the process. If the objective is to clean and reuse the keg, cutting a notch still achieves this - as I said, it doesn't affect the form or function of the keg, unless you're a complete purist.

I think it would be ridiculous to post a new article solely for the information I've added here. It's the same subject, the same process, with an extra option as to how to get the circlip out. There are seven articles in the tools and equipment section, you think three of them should be on how to pull a spear? There are probably a few other ways to get them out too, for example, quite a lot of people would balk at the idea of hitting one tool with another. Should each of them post their own article on how to get the spear out? If my extra information couldn't be easily included with yours, I would have made a new article, but this is simply a few extra lines augmenting your own.

You edit a wiki article to correct, improve or add to it. As I said above, it's a collaborative tool, which means that anyone can, and should, contribute information. If inappropriate changes are made, they can be undone, but the original author should not be the only arbiter of a change's propriety, and should not view their own work proprietarily. The idea that edits can only be made to correct goes against the entire philosophy of a wiki system. My reference to a pulpit was by way of saying that this is not a one-way flow of information, and the person who first presents it does not, and should not, have complete control over what happens to it afterwards.

I resent the statement that my addition turns the article into an instruction for illegal activity. Nowhere do I suggest that anyone should attempt this on a keg that they do not legally own. If the keg isn't legally owned, why should anyone attempt to remove the spear and clean it out for reuse? Perhaps you think it's not illegal for a person to use a brewery-owned keg in their own home for dispensing homebrew indefinitely, provided they don't modify it in any way and can return it when the brewery comes a-calling? I don't think that the absence of modifications allows one to use the "I was only 'angin' on to it for 'em, guv, honest!" defence. If someone is pulling the spear from a keg, they should own it outright, and therefore they are free to modify it in any way they see fit.

I greatly appreciate your contribution of information, products and services to this community, as, I'm sure, does everyone else. Don't stop doing that because I've said that your way to do something isn't the only way, or necessarily the "right way". The right way to do something is whatever the end user decides to do, based on the available information.

 

[domonsura]

I disagree with a number of the things you've said there, not the least of which being you questioning whether I have a firm grasp of what 'illegal use of kegs' means. After nearly 2 decades in the liquor supply and hospitality trades at almost every level I have a better understanding than most.....

Your editing of my original article was un-discussed, very hasty, and has changed the overall message into something it was not intended to be. Yes it has annoyed me. The article took time to write, was factually correct and conveyed a simple message of the correct method of removing a spear if you do not have the correct tool.
What annoys me most is that you did not discuss the edits prior to making them, & while my name is attached to it as the original writer, it conveyed a message that I totally disagree with (re: your recommended use of an angle grinder ) yet the perception to the un-informed is that I wrote the article, so the information comes from or is endorsed by me. OR MY BUSINESS. Which it is not.

As for the rest, I guess your perception of the philosophy of a wiki is different to mine and that of many/most of the people who started the wiki phenomenon. The philosophy you extoll and your haste to edit someone else's article without discussion is one of the reasons wiki has unfortunately come to mean a 'good but sometimes in-accurate information resource that has to be interpreted very carefully.'.......That was not the intention of the creators of wiki. I guess their intention has been edited by people who 'knew a different way' also......

Overall I have better things to do than write articles that get edited later, resulting in people doing things that I don't agree with and wouldn't recommend - thinking that it's what I would do. You can play with the bat and ball. I'm just not going to throw the ball to you again

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

With all due respect, I disagree. It is ALWAYS possible to do this job without damaging the keg. They are designed to be removed and unless someone has mangled the keg neck, it is always possible.

+1 , Many years ago I used many tools too open my first keg , Broke a few things, bashed, chiseled, hit it with a grinder ect ect .. After carefully looking at what I had left I worked out how it went together...

I then spent the next 5 years or so reuseing 50lt kegs continualy , I can pull a speer wash out with nappie san refill and reuse in about 15mins now with no power tools anywhere in site.

I also recommend not damaging the keg in anyway as its good too return it too its owner after a couple of uses so it can have new seals fitted ..

LC , I've read a few of your replies of late and they are not always very helpful , this community is about HELPING other brewers too enjoy our hobby/obsession ..Dom did a VERY good artical and I wish that it was around 8 years ago ..Remover you unwanted edits , start your own keg removal topic, and try too have a positive outlook ...

RDWHAHB


Cheers

 

[LethalCorpse]

You haven't yet given any useful reason as to why you disagree with using an angle grinder. You've implied that it's illegal, which it's not, and you've implied that it destroys the keg, which it doesn't. As I said in my original post, you don't need to go nearly as deep as the photo shows, it can be done without even damaging the circlip. You keep saying yours is the correct method, but who decided that your way's correct? Like I said, you want a one-way flow of information, post it on your website, or even in the forum where it can't be touched.

As to the philosophy of a wiki, take a look at the wikipedia page on wiki, and the about page that can be linked to from the wikipedia homepage. What's given there is as I've described it - you may think it was hasty, but it was well thought out, grammatically correct, technically accurate, and discussed beforehand. It was discussed in this thread back in July last year. Not by me, but I don't think that's relevant. Since there was no dissention in the discussion, it's a valid edit. If it had remained unchanged, my name would've been there as the last editor, right beside yours as the creator. If folks reading the wiki don't realise they're looking at a wiki, and ascribe all comments to the original poster, that's their problem, not that of the original poster or the editor.

 

[LethalCorpse]

+1 , Many years ago I used many tools too open my first keg , Broke a few things, bashed, chiseled, hit it with a grinder ect ect .. After carefully looking at what I had left I worked out how it went together...

I then spent the next 5 years or so reuseing 50lt kegs continualy , I can pull a speer wash out with nappie san refill and reuse in about 15mins now with no power tools anywhere in site.

I also recommend not damaging the keg in anyway as its good too return it too its owner after a couple of uses so it can have new seals fitted ..

LC , I've read a few of your replies of late and they are not always very helpful , this community is about HELPING other brewers too enjoy our hobby/obsession ..Dom did a VERY good artical and I wish that it was around 8 years ago ..Remover you unwanted edits , start your own keg removal topic, and try too have a positive outlook ...

RDWHAHB


Cheers

There's only one person in this thread with a negative outlook mate. I don't see how more information and more options can be anything other than helpful, unless we're talking about enough extra information to cloud the issue entirely (which we're not).

Refer me to specific replies of mine you're not happy with and we'll talk, preferably in their original threads.