Ag Vs Extract Vs Kit

[pint of lager]

Every beer forum I have read has its very own kit vs grain debate.

Then throw in a dose of kit cringe and ag snobbery.

I first started with kits and loved them, thought that the ag'ers were wasting their time, but acknowledged they really knew their stuff, very passionate and very helpful. So decided to gather the gear for small scale mashing and give it a go before denouncing ag'ers as snobs and time wasters.

After my first few mashes, I was hooked. Understood that extract flavour comment that ag'ers mutter about. Understood how much control mashers have over their brews. Tasted my very own special brews. Know a lot more about beers and brewing.

Now I am a passionate ag brewer.

Brew the best beers you can.

 

[chiller]

What an excellent topic.

I have really enjoyed reading the rational comments regarding the various types of brewing. I brew all grain and I consider it to be the "best for me" as I love the process and the discipline required to craft a beer based on my ability as a brewer.

I'm very fortunate to be part of an Adelaide all grain brewing group that has some brilliant brewers, guys that willingly share knowledge and techniques.

At our last gathering I was extremley impressed by the quality of the beers up for tasting. All individually crafted with the brewers skill evident as he controlled all stages other than malting the grain.

For some reason beer brewing and all grain in particular encourages a sense of community not encountered in many other hobbies.

Jayse, Oz, Wee Stu, Boots and I were discussing this last night at the Belgian Beer Cafe and agreed secrets were not a real factor in this hobby. I'm very happy to give and receive information from others. And yet other activities are often based on "the edge" you have over someone else.

Until you have tried all grain brewing or spent a day brewing with an experienced all grainer it is very hard to form a complete picture, sure the beer is [my opinion] much better, however taste is only part of the whole picture.

The sound of the grain being cracked the calculation to hit strike temperature the decision as to what grain and which hops etc,etc ......

Oh yes and the wonderful roar of a significant gas burner

I freely admit I am an all grain snob but I will never denegrate the efforts of another brewer. We all brew for different reasons, economic or in my case "therapy"

I have tasted many very ordinary beers right across the brewing spectrum including my own. I have tasted all grain beers that have been lactic infected so the brewing method alone will not necassarily make the beer better.

Brewing a good all grain beer can be harder than making a good kit beer but when you start to get a handle on all the process it can be the most fun you ......... let's just say it is a buzz

Because it is all grain doesn't guarantee a great beer but the chances are much higher it will be extremely good.

My all grain set up is reasonably straight forward and I will post some pics and tips on things to get yourself started if anyone would like to see them.

Remember ask 5 all grainers how to set up equipment and get 25 different answers.

Joking ?? .... no that's just how interesting our hobby is.

I'm Steve .... I'm addicted to all grain brewiing.

 

[Justin]

And don't forget the smell of boiling malt and hops that fills the backyard and drifts over the neighbours fences, rousing the interest of neighbours as to your activities and then all the questions which inevitably leads to them coming round to sample some of these brews that your brewing. Hmmmmmmm....I love the smell of boiling malt and hops. This step is one of the best aspects of all grain brewing that I like and you kind of miss out on in kit brewing I think (I mean the more simpler kits here, the LME and hop boils get this too. Hmmmmm, I love it).

But as chiller said and I said above it really develops a real sense of community that perhaps only the 6+hrs of lonely brewing can develop. I have some great mates now out of my all grain brewing that I wish I had developed when I was kit brewing. I don't know why I didn't meet up with anyone in my kit brewing days but it just didnt really happen. Had the odd chat and that was about it. Now all the guys fairly regularly get together and do a big brew session, it's good fun and breaks up those long hours brewing on your own.

Cheers again. This has been a great topic I agree. Nice to hear peoples thoughts.

Justin

 

[Jase]

Oh Well.....

I was a bit hestitant on posting this topic, out of fear of being crucified of starting an us vs them debate.... But now I am glad I did.

It is great to hear every opinion, and more importantly, their encouragement of everyone methods. I hope to read more post on this topic.

Cheers,
Jase

 

[jgriffin]

What i want to know is, are there any Brisbane based AG brewers here who would be willing to share a drop and maybe let me watch while they do an AG brew.

 

[deebee]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and the views of different brewers. This talk of wafting aromas and community mindedness has made me feel all wistful and poetic. So please forgive me for this, way off the scale on my wankometer.

Why I Love Brewing by Dee Bee.

I like food. Therefore I like restaurants, meals at friends houses and cooking. I dont always make restaurant standard meals, but when the planets align it occasionally happens. Well, once or twice. I love Indian, Italian and Thai restaurants. BUT I also love home-cooked mutton chops and mashed potato, a pie at the footy and Im into cheese sausages in an unhealthy way. I dont have to cook or eat haute cuisine to enjoy my food. I refuse to be precious about food.

I like beer: Therefore I like pubs, pissups and brewing. I dont always make good beers but depending on my horoscope, it can happen. Well, once or twice. I love character-filled micro brews, posh Belgian ales and malty German lagers BUT I also get into chugging away at a carton of Coopers or a fresh-green batch of kit beer. I definitely dont have to make a great beer to be satisfied with my brewing. I try not to be precious about beer, but my mates still call me a beer-wanker.

I also dig the idea of being involved in the production. I make my own compost, collect my own seeds and grow my own vegies. Like feeding your family with fish you caught on a lure you made, it feels real. If thats true then all-grain brewing is more real than extract brewing because you are involved at an earlier stage in the process. But unless you are isolating yeast strains, growing barley and malting it, there is a limit.

I never EVER have a full day to dedicate to brewing. Might retire before I go all-grain; I hear stories of eight-hour days. A partial mash takes me a few hours all up. But I can put down a kits and bits brew in less than an hour including steeping/boiling and if it is 80% as good as an all-grain version that takes all day, I'm ahead.

Sometimes I feel like brewing the best beer I can. Sometimes I feel like just getting a brew down coz my stocks are low. I also have in-laws and workmates who hassle me to make a normal (read: pale coloured, light bodied, heavily carbonated, lightly hopped) beer. Another man might just buy a pack of frozen pies and a slab of carlton cold once a week, but I love brewing.

P.S. My best beer was a partial mash. Aside from the odd infection, my worst beers have all been kits.

Yours in homebrewing

deebee

 

[Doc]

When I started brewing it was all kit and kilo of dextrose, and I thought my first beer was the best ever. Then I started changing the dextrose for liquid malts and adding additional hops etc.
I then found out about all grain brewing via the internet. Heard all the usual stuff about AG beers being much better, more control blah blah blah. But then I heard it took like six hours. WTF ?? A kit takes 20 minutes.
I started using liquid yeasts in my kits and loved the extra zing it gave my wheat beers etc, but I still couldn't see myself doing AG because I thought my beers where pretty good etc and the whole AG process looked complicated and required stuff I didn't have. Let alone trying to alot enough time to do it. I was finding it hard to get my yeast starters ready a couple of days before putting down a kit.

Then I tried an AG Beer. WOW

Two months later I had accumulated and built my AG brewery. Haven't looked back since. Initially I'd brew a kit inbetween AG brews to keep the stocks up. However my kit brews paled into insignificance when compared to my AG brews. I now do double AG brew days as the second brew only adds a couple of hours to the brewday. If you are spending the day brewing, a couple of extra hours to get another 23 litres is well worth it.

So I highly recommend that you try a couple of brewers AG brews if you are currently a non AG brewer (and it is great to see you guys asking for this on the board). Then if you are keen to give it a go, attend an AG demo day at a brewshop or with an AG brewer. It is a lot easier when you see it done before your eyes.

However starting out brewing from kits is very important. It gives you a great grounding in methods like sanitation and gets you familiar with fermentation. With brew shops also now offering grain packs to add to kits this also allows you to familiarise yourself with malted grains and what flavours and extra dimensions they can add to your beer.

I don't even remember the last kit I bought. I was given a couple a year or so ago and brewed them to get them out of the cupboard, but ended up tipping the keg down the drain.

My name is Doc and I'm an AG brew-a-holic. I'm planning another Muther of all brewdays for August

Beers,
Doc

 

[Snow]

What i want to know is, are there any Brisbane based AG brewers here who would be willing to share a drop and maybe let me watch while they do an AG brew.

John,

I'm not an all grainer, but I do large partial mashes and would be happy to catch up for a brewing session and share a drop or ten. I've also got a couple of mates who would be keen, too. It would be good to swap some yeasts at the same time, I reckon. Of course, if you track down an all-grainer willing to put up with us, please let me know as I wouldn't mind tagging along.

I see you're in Bardon. A few of us were actually thinking of setting up our own little "brewers appreciation group" for the western suburbs, as there aren't any homebrew clubs in the west. Not really looking for a full-blown club, just a gathering of like-minded souls who want to share knowledge and techniques and become better brewers.

Cheers - Snow.

 

[chiller]

For Adelaide all grain brewers or those with frequent flyer points to spare .........


I've decided to invite new all grainers and those standing near the edge to my home this weekend after reading this thread.

If you would like to attend and I'm restricting it to no more than 6 people PM me and I will get back to you.

We will brew an all grain beer have a BBQ and develop that community thing.


Sunday [mash in at 11.00 am ]

Day has been changed to Sunday.

Bootes has already accepted so that leaves 5.

Jazman is in.
Steve SA will be our brewer and he is brewing an ESB

That leaves 3

Steve.

 

[Bobby]

denouncing ag'ers as snobs and time wasters.

When i first began reading up on the net and discovered there is more than just kit and kilo i.e partials and All grain i initially had the same feelings. To my shock and horror it turns out the all grainers are not elitist tossers as i was expecting. In particular the guys on this forum have been quite the opposite, helpfull and enthusiastic. This enthusiasm is rubbing off . At the moment i just do kits and bits and extract brewing but thanks to this forum i hope to eventually move to all grain.
cheers

 

[Justin]

It seems all grain brewing in Australia is booming as a result of the ease of getting the right information off the internet and these forums. From what I'm seeing here and on grumpies and others sites of late it seems heaps of people are getting into it. Lets hope this encourages homebrew shops to start stocking more and more equipment like what we see in the states. Imagine our own "more beer" store here in Aus. Heaven. Or hell on the wallet Brew on, I'm going home.

Justin

 

[jgriffin]

It seems all grain brewing in Australia is booming as a result of the ease of getting the right information off the internet and these forums.

I agree that getting the right info is the important part. I've discovered that while my LHB guy is actually quite knowledgable, the amount he tells you depends on your knowledge. For example, the first time i went in buying kits and stuff, i asked if the carbonation drops were ok. He told me they were great.
Then i learnt about bulk priming, mentioned it to him, and he was like "yeah bulk priming is the only way to go, those drops are shit". I've since found that the more technical i talk about beer to him, the more forthcoming he is.

Anyway, long story short, he is probably trying his best to serve his customers so he can keep his living. But i wonder how many kit / extract brewers would love to give partial or full mashes a go, but have no idea that it's even possible, or no idea how to do it.

 

[jayse]

Just had my $0.02 worth, that being all the very very best beers i have had all used at least a small part mash.
As this thread is aimed at making the very best competive beers you can i can safely say extract beers will not cut the mustard unless you had the results of a partial mash.
You have to be careful saying this sometimes as people get upset but remember i/we are talking about making the very very best beers possible not trying to start a war about different peoples brewing techniquies.

There are whole range of malts which are the best in the world which you can only use if you mash them.
For example JWM trad malt or TF or bairds marris otter etc are a couple of the best base malts going around and the malt used to make most concentrated extracts are not as good as these.
So when making a extract brew you are limited to using only the cheaper malts as a base.
On top of the base malts when you mash you also can use alot of other charater malts that you can not use with out a mash. Some examples are munich, melanoidin and amber malt all of which are said to be 'gods gift to brewing'.

So from this you can see all grain brewing is not just about making the beer from scratch yourself but it is also making the best beer possible because you are using the best malts you can possibly get.
In my opinion the best beers don't need to be a full mash as 50% of the fermentables coming from a mash is enough to give the beer that extra edge.
So if size is a problem and equipment also then i suggest trying this type of brewing first as it can produce beer that can hold there own against a all grain brew. After that you will find it is only a matter of a bigger mash tun and kettle to do a full mash but the time to brew will be around about the same.
remember it is no different mashing 1kg as it is mashing 1000kg or anywhere in between.

Anyway that is my story amd iam sticking to it.
I started out all graining because i wanted to make the beer from scratch and understand how to make a good beer and what makes it so good.
Along the way i discovered not only could i make beers from scratch myself that matched anything i have ever tried. I found the reason was not because i made them from scratch myself and had total control over the wort but simply because the beers where made using the best malts available that made them better.

Ramble finished.
Jayse

 

[bonk]

in a similar vein to jayse. i put an oatmeal stout into a local show up here. i went "overboard" and used the very best english malts i could, ie TF. the result was i won hands down, and the bloke who has only ever used the stout tin was complaining because he always won and couldn't figure out why his beer didn't taste as good as mine.

i'm not trying to brag etc, it was a good example of kit vs ag (when down well) in tasting.

 

[Trough Lolly]

...So when making a extract brew you are limited to using only the cheaper malts as a base. <snip>
Ramble finished.
Jayse

Hey Jayse - good points mate!
Yes, the choice of brand and style of grain really does help improve the overall quality of the beer - with extract you normally have to go with Coopers and whilst that may be ok to most, it is a bit of a limit, especially if 80%+ of your malt profile is based on that extract.
That's why I currently have 5 x 25kg bags of malt on order - Lager, Stout and Munich malts from Bairds and IMC! They ran out of Weyermann Munich
TL

 

[Hopeye]

My name is Doc and I'm an AG brew-a-holic. I'm planning another Muther of all brewdays for August

Hey Doc, care for any company in August ???

 

[Jase]

2 x 25ltr plasic pail fermenters for your HLT and Boiler (some guy on this list sells them for $15 each)
2 x electric kettles for the 2400w elements which go in the HLT and Boiler (about $15 from Cheap as Chips etc)
1 X esky for about $40
1 x Marga Mulino Mill $50
1 x CFC $80 at Goliaths (just to be extravagant)
Plus a few plumbing bits and pieces, approximately $50

Grand total $280

Hi MAH,

I am interested to see how you have used the 2400w elements in lieu of a burner and regulator.

Any pics and info would be great?

Cheers,
Jase

 

[user 384]

Hi Jase

That was just an example of what you can do, and my system is slightly different.

I use converted kegs for the Kettle and HLT and a 2400w immersion element (heat stick) from Tobins (Item No: 4108). This just hangs inside the HLT or Kettle as needed. Too easy :lol: !

The element has enough grunt for my needs. I brew batches big enough to keg, so I aim for 22ltrs post boil, which allows for about 1ltr lost in the fermenter and 2-3ltrs to the kettle, CFC etc. I start the boil at about 28ltrs and the element will bring this up to a very nice rolling boil. The wort from the mash tun, after mashing out at 75C, is about 70C in the kettle. The element takes it to a boil in aproximately 30mins. It's not super quick, but it's not slow, and it takes about 15min more than the super-charged burners.

It's horses for courses. I brew single corny keg batches because I love to brew often, so it suits me. Other advantages are it's compact and easy to store, plus it lends itself to a degree of automation, particularly for the HERMS I'm building.

For a brew stand I've simply bolted on legs to the sides of the kegs, made from 40mm x 40mm galvanized fence post that are 1mtr high. This gives the system a lot of flexibility to fit into tight corners etc. No problem with stability either, with a full kettle weighing it down, it's extremely sturdy. The mash tun is a 10gallon round cooler, which I'm still trying to work out the best way to mount, but will be at the same height as the other vessels. It's all driven by a March 809 pump. I've opted for quick dissconects so I can easily swap over hoses, again adding to the flexibility of the system.

In my earlier post I mentioned it could be done relatively cheap, but I've gone OTT with SS or high temp food grade plastic fittings, a convoluted CFC, high temp pump etc. But the $70 element works just fine .

Cheers
MAH

 

[Gough]

Mah,

You mentioned a Marga Mulino Mill @ $50. Where did you get it? I've heard these need to be modified, is this correct? If so how? I did a search and read the many previous posts concerning mills on this site and had more or less decided to wait till I had $250-300 and import a Valley Mill, but $50 sounds a lot better. Does it give a crush you are happy with? Adjustable?

Sorry about all the questions, just planning my next purchase

Shawn.

 

[user 384]

Hi Shawn

The Margo was just an example of how you don't have to spend loads, I actually have a Valley Mill. Someone else will hae to give you some details on the Margo.

If you are going to import a mill, consider the Barley Crusher, as it's just as good and seems to be cheaper to import. Just on unit pric alone the Barley Crusher is AUS$85 cheaper, and should cost about $200 delivered (if they send it surface mail).

Or you could go nuts and buy a 3 roller CrankandStein and be the envy of all AHB memembers (picture attached). This would cost about AUS$285 delivered (again if they send it via surface mail).

I really think suppliers of the Valley Mill have priced themselves out of the market and I wouldn't purchase from them again, I'd get the CrankandStein!

Cheers
MAH