AG advice & stainless fermenter

[Reef]

Howdy folks,

First post - I'm new to AG brewing and have just completed my third batch. I'm using a basic false bottom cooler mash-tun/kettle system and cube/no chill.

My question regards taste, plastic and stainless. When I moved to AG I was aiming to brew better, cleaner tasting beers that do not have that 'home-brew taste and smell'. I can't really put my finger on this taste and smell but I always assumed it was extract and amateur brewing.

What I've realised is that AG brewing hasn't totally eliminated this. Taste has definitely improved but that initial smell is still there.

I've now decided the ferment in a stainless vessel and avoid plastic in the hope that this helps. My theory is the plastic is contributing to this.

Have others also tried this? My concern is will I still have this issue when cubing/no chilling in plastic prior to stainless fermenting (up to 2 days)? And will I get the same issue when I move into my plastic secondary for dry hopping and crash chilling (up to 7 days)?

Ultimately I'll aim to buy two stainless fermenters but would like to avoid this if possible. I don't have a chiller so cubing will need to occur for a while also.

Any advice for this rookie?

Cheers!

 

[pat_00]

I recently bought a brew bucket, I have only fermented full wort kits in there. Both from Grain and Grape, and they have both been great. These are made the same way I believe, no-chilled.

 

[Rocker1986]

I no-chill in HDPE cubes and ferment in a HDPE fermenter, have been doing this for nearly 3 years and never noticed anything like that. My beer quality jumped once I made the switch to AG. Fresher, more bold flavours I thought.

Either my nose and tastebuds are shithouse, or the plastic has no effect. Personally, I don't think the plastic has any effect on the flavour of the beer. I do get a bit of a 'yeasty' taste and aroma while the beer is young, but this dissipates after a few weeks in the bottle.

 

[Crusty]

Howdy folks,

First post - I'm new to AG brewing and have just completed my third batch. I'm using a basic false bottom cooler mash-tun/kettle system and cube/no chill.

My question regards taste, plastic and stainless. When I moved to AG I was aiming to brew better, cleaner tasting beers that do not have that 'home-brew taste and smell'. I can't really put my finger on this taste and smell but I always assumed it was extract and amateur brewing.

What I've realised is that AG brewing hasn't totally eliminated this. Taste has definitely improved but that initial smell is still there.

I've now decided the ferment in a stainless vessel and avoid plastic in the hope that this helps. My theory is the plastic is contributing to this.

Have others also tried this? My concern is will I still have this issue when cubing/no chilling in plastic prior to stainless fermenting (up to 2 days)? And will I get the same issue when I move into my plastic secondary for dry hopping and crash chilling (up to 7 days)?

Ultimately I'll aim to buy two stainless fermenters but would like to avoid this if possible. I don't have a chiller so cubing will need to occur for a while also.

Any advice for this rookie?

Cheers!

I really don't believe that any of your plastic vessels would be contributing to the taste you are detecting. You are using BPA free plastics right?
Although I've never encountered problems using plasitc no chill cubes or fermenters, I can detect a plastic type taste in US-05 yeast. It's in every beer that I make with it & I began to blame the fermenter & purchased a Sanke fermenting kit from Brewer's Hardware in the USA. Are you finding that taste relating to US-05 like me? Everyone that tries my beers with US-05 can't detect the plastic type taste but I can, it's there. I made a duplicate beer using Wyeast 1056, same equipment & no plastic taste. It's the yeast that I'm getting it from. Fermenting in stainless is the way to go for sure. How much better your beer will be is highly debatable but it's the industry standard & the way I'm going. I wouldn't bother transferring to a secondary for dry hopping either, it's not necessary & doing that step is just another chance for an infection to sneak in. Dry hop it in the primary for a couple of days before you cold crash it. 1g/lt I find pretty good but the hop heads seem to like at least 2g/lt.

 

[fcmcg]

Can you give us a run down on your cleaning and sanitation techniques?
I suspect that there may be something there
Too many guys ferment in plastic and win competitions....I'm sorry but I think it's something you are or are not doing..not your equipment ...

 

[Reef]

I nearly exclusively use US-05 as I love American Ales. I've even started using two sachets of late for 1045 OG+ ales. So you may well be right.

Is wyeast 1056 the best alternative for US05? I will give this a try.

I do agree that stainless is the go, if anything, easier to clean. I also doubt that cubing for 24hrs would ruin the beer also.

So do you dry hop after fermentation has subsided (7-10days) for a few days (at fermenting temps) then move the whole unit to cold crash for say another week with the dry hops still in there?

Cheers.

 

[Reef]

Can you give us a run down on your cleaning and sanitation techniques?
I suspect that there may be something there
Too many guys ferment in plastic and win competitions....I'm sorry but I think it's something you are or are not doing..not your equipment ...

You may be right - my sanitising could be described as lazy or over the top.

I basically rinse each vessel/keg with water then half full them with hot water and pink stain (a few tbl spoons) and let them soak until required (could be days or weeks). Just before I use them I'll empty the liquid and rinse the pink stain solution off each item. I do this with my kegs, spoons, hop spider, hoses - the lot.

It all smells clean but maybe this is my problem?

 

[Crusty]

I nearly exclusively use US-05 as I love American Ales. I've even started using two sachets of late for 1045 OG+ ales. So you may well be right.

Is wyeast 1056 the best alternative for US05? I will give this a try.

I do agree that stainless is the go, if anything, easier to clean. I also doubt that cubing for 24hrs would ruin the beer also.

So do you dry hop after fermentation has subsided (7-10days) for a few days (at fermenting temps) then move the whole unit to cold crash for say another week with the dry hops still in there?

Cheers.

1056 is a great yeast as is 1272, both American Ale.
You may be detecting the same as me buddy. It's a slight plastic type taste, especially when you burp.
It subsides a little after some time but it never goes away. We may just have an identical pallette. It's kind of like drinking water from a plastic container that's been sitting in the sun. Not that strong but you know what I mean. I've tried dry hopping several ways & rarely dry hop these days but if I do, I will ferment for 12 days, add dry hops for 2 days then cold crash for 7 days. The hops stay in there for 9 days but 7 days of that is @1degC ( cold crash )

 

[wereprawn]

Pink stain remover is just a cleaner. You also need a sanitizer . Starsan or a similar sanitizer are very easy to use and work quickly . When you do get an infection it may be very hard to get rid of it without the stuff.

 

[MastersBrewery]

The pink stain remover is Tri-sodium-phosphate (TSP), when bar tending many moons ago as stated above we would run the glasses through it once a week, and then through the glass washer 3 times. You really need to rinse that stuff well. And get some Starsan, yeah a 32oz bottle aint cheap but I think in 3 years I've got through 5oz, and I'm not shy with the stuff. Put half a cup of mixed solution in a vessel seal, shake, wait a minute, shake again, tip out excess, JOB DONE! (note that is sanitising not cleaning, vessel needs to be clean first, nappy san is my fav, from aldi)

 

[Reef]

1056 is a great yeast as is 1272, both American Ale.
You may be detecting the same as me buddy. It's a slight plastic type taste, especially when you burp.
It subsides a little after some time but it never goes away. We may just have an identical pallette. It's kind of like drinking water from a plastic container that's been sitting in the sun. Not that strong but you know what I mean. I've tried dry hopping several ways & rarely dry hop these days but if I do, I will ferment for 12 days, add dry hops for 2 days then cold crash for 7 days. The hops stay in there for 9 days but 7 days of that is @1degC ( cold crash )

Thanks mate i'll give the other yeasts a go and see if this helps.

 

[Reef]

The pink stain remover is Tri-sodium-phosphate (TSP), when bar tending many moons ago as stated above we would run the glasses through it once a week, and then through the glass washer 3 times. You really need to rinse that stuff well. And get some Starsan, yeah a 32oz bottle aint cheap but I think in 3 years I've got through 5oz, and I'm not shy with the stuff. Put half a cup of mixed solution in a vessel seal, shake, wait a minute, shake again, tip out excess, JOB DONE! (note that is sanitising not cleaning, vessel needs to be clean first, nappy san is my fav, from aldi)

Cheers - looks like I have a problem here too. I'll definitely start cleaning AND sanitising. I've only once had a fully infected batch but maybe some infection is still lingering.

Is pink stain still recommended for cleaning?

What are the local Oz sanitising alternatives for Starsan?

Cheers!

 

[Crusty]

Keep us posted on your next brew using an alternative to US-05. I'd be surprised if you still detect that plastic taste.
Cheers

 

[barls]

nothing beats star san. there are phosphoric based sanitiser but they aren't as good imo.
I'm almost through a bottle and its been 7 years.

 

[zeggie]

Plastic/band aid taste is a definite sign of infection.

BJCPlastic Band-aid, electrical tape, styrene - Check for infection. Check yeast strain and health. Lower fermentation temperature


Starsan is awesome and even a small bottle will last aaaages.

Also, improvement from liquid yeast could be pitching rate. Might be underpitching or not rehydrating with the dry yeast.

 

[TheWiggman]

I hesitantly concur with the dried yeast. I've only ever had the plastic taste described from US-05 and M44. Tipped the first, conditioning the second with hope. No visual evidence of an infection and it's something that hasn't happened to any other brews (save wheats and when I actually had plastic in fittings ruining beer). I say hesitantly because a lot of breweries use US-05 I understand and I can only pick a handful of commercial beers that also exhibit this taste. Have used 1056 and 1450 without fault. Love the Denny's Favourite.

 

[Grainer]

I use all plastic and hotcube.. and winning comps .. i wouldnt think plastic is the issue.. i also exclusively use liquid yeasts.. oh and my hotcubes can sit around with wort in em for like 1-4 months before i ferment them!

 

[Coalminer]

Pink Stain Remover is Chlorinated TSP and should not be used on stainless steel
chlorine based substances need to be really well rinsed before use
un-chlorinated TSP and Sodium Percarbonate are readily available and economical - safe for stainless

 

[Reef]

Thanks for the responses guys. It’s frustrating because I know the recipes and beers themselves are great but there is always this underlying annoying smell/taste. After 2-3 beers you don’t really notice it but the first glass after a few days you definitely do. You smell it raising your glass and slightly taste on the first sip - but by the time you’ve swallowed/skulled it’s gone. So if it is an infection it’s very subtle.

I think it is either (or a combination) of poor sanitising and yeast strain.

I have been exclusively using two sachets of US-05, re-hydrating the yeast in 230ml of water for 15mins and pitching and fermenting at 19’C (pales, IPA’s etc) for up to 10days – then transferring into a secondary to dry hop and cold crashing for another 4-7days. I think I’ll look to simplify this also and stick with the primary for dry-hopping & cold crashing. A good way to good for APA’s, IPA’s, Session IPA’s etc?

I’m going to revamp my system to eliminate this:

1. Ferment in stainless (and plastic when required)
2. Lower the fermentation temp to 18’C
3. Pink-stain (alternative when using stainless) to clean and Starsan to sanitise
4. Use Wyeast where possible or at least a different strain of dry yeast (1056, 1050, 1272 – in term of ales)
5. Use primary to ferment, dry-hop & cold crash. Avoid secondary.

It’s frustrating but I probably wouldn’t bother brewing if it was super easy.

 

[TheWiggman]

There are heaps of different plastic tastes that can mean different things. If I said I can taste a 'spice', that could mean turmeric, cloves, cumin, cinnamon, nutmeg etc. which without knowing what they are first I really can't identify them. So, I recommend getting another experienced brewer to taste your beer as they might be able to remove all doubt. I was having a diacetyl issue which I couldn't identify, and now that I found out what diacetyl tastes like I know immediately when it's in a beer and can pin down my errors.
That said, your steps above are fine. Consider sodium percarbonate or PBW as a cleaner instead of the pink stain stuff if you're going to be dealing with stainless.