Active Starter

[Wolfy]

Depending on the style/gravity etc I sometimes pitch yeast (slurry) but in many cases I want an active starter. It's easy to adjust a recipe to allow for additional unhopped wort, plus a little sucrose to readjust fermentability.

After actually reading the yeast section in "How to Brew" it's reinforced my personal preference to allow the starter to ferment and for the yeast to settle before pitching.

JP suggests that if the stater wort is "very similar" to the beer-wort then pitching an 'active starter' is most likely the best way to go. This is because the yeast in the starter has produced a specific set of enzymes for the wort's sugar profile, so it's ready to go straight away.
However, if the composition of the stater and beer-wort are different (especially true if using a starter containing refined sugar), by pitching an 'active' starter it may actually impair the yeast and fermentation.
By letting the yeast ferment and settle they build up glycogen and trehalose reserves, allowing the yeast to start with a 'clean slate' and so it is better prepared to adapt to the new wort, resulting in less lag time and better fermentation than if it was pitched when the starter was 'active'.

When creating a starter I either use LDME or wort saved from a previous brew, so the starter wort will always be different to the (AG) beer-wort, as a result I feel there is more reason to let it ferment fully and settle before pitching. Only pitching the yeast-slurry also reduces any off-flavours that might have been produced in the starter.
But yeast are hardy little buggers and this is not really rocket-science so there are many ways to do it and equally many ways to produce good beer, which is what we all aim to do, no matter (if or) how we create and pitch a starter.

 

[manticle]

After actually reading the yeast section in "How to Brew" it's reinforced my personal preference to allow the starter to ferment and for the yeast to settle before pitching.

JP suggests that if the stater wort is "very similar" to the beer-wort then pitching an 'active starter' is most likely the best way to go. This is because the yeast in the starter has produced a specific set of enzymes for the wort's sugar profile, so it's ready to go straight away.
However, if the composition of the stater and beer-wort are different (especially true if using a starter containing refined sugar), by pitching an 'active' starter it may actually impair the yeast and fermentation.
By letting the yeast ferment and settle they build up glycogen and trehalose reserves, allowing the yeast to start with a 'clean slate' and so it is better prepared to adapt to the new wort, resulting in less lag time and better fermentation than if it was pitched when the starter was 'active'.

When creating a starter I either use LDME or wort saved from a previous brew, so the starter wort will always be different to the (AG) beer-wort, as a result I feel there is more reason to let it ferment fully and settle before pitching. Only pitching the yeast-slurry also reduces any off-flavours that might have been produced in the starter.
But yeast are hardy little buggers and this is not really rocket-science so there are many ways to do it and equally many ways to produce good beer, which is what we all aim to do, no matter (if or) how we create and pitch a starter.

If you no chill in a cube with a tap, you can use the no chill wort to feed the yeast starter and get the same profile. If you take time with the starter and don't overheat or over agitate, there are no discernible off flavours.

 

[Wolfy]

If you no chill in a cube with a tap, you can use the no chill wort to feed the yeast starter and get the same profile. If you take time with the starter and don't overheat or over agitate, there are no discernible off flavours.

Exactly and hence that scenario is the ideal to pitch an active starter ... but I don't no-chill.

 

[Nick JD]

Nick, how long do you keep your slurry for before using it?

I've used one that was more than 6 months old with no issues. After settling out it's just a bottle of beer with about 3-4cm of sediment - enough to pitch into 18L - the fermenter is active quicker than with a yeast pack.

 

[Oatlands Brewer]

Hey Nick how do you harvest and store your yeast...i might give it a go.

Im in the middle of Tassie and noone in tassie stocks liquid yeasts and dryed yeasts are fluky to get here at times aswell, so smack packs are at least 3 days and a express bag away, which is why i did the starter for the IIPA

 

[RdeVjun]

Hey Nick how do you harvest and store your yeast...i might give it a go.

Im in the middle of Tassie and noone in tassie stocks liquid yeasts and dryed yeasts are fluky to get here at times aswell, so smack packs are at least 3 days and a express bag away, which is why i did the starter for the IIPA

At this time of year, liquid yeast is fine for travel when despatched from anywhere in the country, if packaged appropriately (most liquid retailers or AHB sponsors will do that, AFAIK). After that first pack (or more in the one shipment), with yeast re- use you should be in that yeast strain for yonks! :icon_cheers:

 

[Screwtop]

I thought I understood rich brewers!

The way I do it is to pitch the correct amount the first time and then bottle slurry. Each slurry bottle is an adequate pitch (there's enough yeast in one fermenter's trub for 4 brews) so it eliminates the need for complicated starters.

For $20 worth of yeast I can get 10 brews with a max 3rd generation yeast. $2 a brew ... that's tight isn't it? No dicking around with starters - although I must admit they are fun. Since I began bottling yeast I've stopped making starters.

Maybe I don't explain things thoroughly enough, and I'm getting a little ****** and short at having to repeat myself,,,,,, but ..................

It's a fcuking LAGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would have had to buy 5 smack packs to have enough yeast to pitch without making a starter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One point about your post, you say no budding/replication but that is of course one thing we are often after in our starter

NO THATS WHAT WE ARE AFTER IN OUR STEPPING UP! Pitching a smack pack into 1 or 2 litres of wort as a starter produces very little growth, the yeast does not need to multiply is this much wort and begins fermentation right off the bat.

After actually reading the yeast section in "How to Brew" it's reinforced my personal preference to allow the starter to ferment and for the yeast to settle before pitching.

JP suggests that if the stater wort is "very similar" to the beer-wort then pitching an 'active starter' is most likely the best way to go. This is because the yeast in the starter has produced a specific set of enzymes for the wort's sugar profile, so it's ready to go straight away.
However, if the composition of the stater and beer-wort are different (especially true if using a starter containing refined sugar), by pitching an 'active' starter it may actually impair the yeast and fermentation.
By letting the yeast ferment and settle they build up glycogen and trehalose reserves, allowing the yeast to start with a 'clean slate' and so it is better prepared to adapt to the new wort, resulting in less lag time and better fermentation than if it was pitched when the starter was 'active'.

Yes all of the above is achieved when building up yeast to the volume I require, the yeast goes through the primary phase then fermentation, drops out, pour off and give it another cycle, continue until I have the amount of yeast required. Then make my starter...............no sugar (who uses sugar in a starter?), that is in the wort. And yes this batch is a very simple lager with Corn and Rice. Maybe a startling revelation but there are reasons for me doing things the way I do.

AGAIN! All I set out to do here was to show what an active starter looked like, and to help brewers who mistakenly look for Krausen as an indicator of fermentation activity! People can go and read How To Brew for themselves and do it any which way they like.

Screwy

 

[praxis178]

GOLD...Thanks Screwy.

I had almost the same looking thing bubblin away on my kitchen table on Sat night, it was my first starter ever, for a IIPA, i was under the inpresion that i shouldve been a foam spittin monster before i pitched it, but it never aventuated. so come pitchin time on sunday, in she went holdas boldas even shook the bugger up.....now the fermenter is a foam spittin beast...most active ferment ive ever had.

It was a 4 lt starter in a 20l brew

Had one just like (1.2L) it till about 4.30 this arvo when it went into the ESB (19L) wort and took off like a shot. Nice to see a pic of something I see every time I build a starter, same process (tough to me by my yeast tech Mum who did QC for a major world yeast producer, back in the old country) that I use to step up from a slant too.

 

[RdeVjun]

Thanks Screwy BTW, really appreciate the info and explanation, tees up with what I do for my occasional lager. :icon_cheers:

Any SG measurements along the way? (Not that I use a refractometer, although the tipped portion is a useful indicator for us plebs with hydrometers- I'm just curious more than anything else...) :unsure:

 

[Dazza_devil]

All very interesting.
I've often wondered what advantages there are in letting each step in stepping up a starter ferment right out then decant and feed again as opposed to just fermenting each stage for a while till about done then just feeding again without chilling and decanting. I already have a two week lag time between bottling and brew day using the later method so I'm sticking with that since I'm getting good results and little lag time as far as fermentation is concerned.
So technically, for example, my 3 litre starter isn't really equivalent to a 3 litre starter that's been chilled, decanted and fed along the way. It's a 1 litre starter that's been fed another 2 litres as opposed to a 1 litre starter that's been fed another 3 litres after chilling and decanting.
Surely there is more loss of the less flocculant yeast with the chilling and decanting between steps.

 

[Screwtop]

Had one just like (1.2L) it till about 4.30 this arvo when it went into the ESB (19L) wort and took off like a shot. Nice to see a pic of something I see every time I build a starter, same process (tough to me by my yeast tech Mum who did QC for a major world yeast producer, back in the old country) that I use to step up from a slant too.

Really, I used a shitload of Fermipan many years ago :icon_cheers:

Thanks Screwy BTW, really appreciate the info and explanation, tees up with what I do for my occasional lager. :icon_cheers:

Any SG measurements along the way? (Not that I use a refractometer, although the tipped portion is a useful indicator for us plebs with hydrometers- I'm just curious more than anything else...) :unsure:

The steps are done warm. Watch 100g in 1L boiled for 10 min, it actually produces a wort of around 1.050, so water it back to 1.036 - 1.040 with some cooled boiled water. I don't wait for any floccing, into the fridge at 60 - 65%AA (1.014-15) and as soon as I have a good layer of yeast, use a small sterile hose to siphon off the wort. Allow to warm up while preparing the next batch of wort to pitch it to.

Screwy

 

[manticle]

Maybe I don't explain things thoroughly enough, and I'm getting a little ****** and short at having to repeat myself,,,,,, but ..................

It's a fcuking LAGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would have had to buy 5 smack packs to have enough yeast to pitch without making a starter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



NO THATS WHAT WE ARE AFTER IN OUR STEPPING UP! Pitching a smack pack into 1 or 2 litres of wort as a starter produces very little growth, the yeast does not need to multiply is this much wort and begins fermentation right off the bat.



Yes all of the above is achieved when building up yeast to the volume I require, the yeast goes through the primary phase then fermentation, drops out, pour off and give it another cycle, continue until I have the amount of yeast required. Then make my starter...............no sugar (who uses sugar in a starter?), that is in the wort. And yes this batch is a very simple lager with Corn and Rice. Maybe a startling revelation but there are reasons for me doing things the way I do.

AGAIN! All I set out to do here was to show what an active starter looked like, and to help brewers who mistakenly look for Krausen as an indicator of fermentation activity! People can go and read How To Brew for themselves and do it any which way they like.

Screwy

The info and pics are useful regardless. My starters are currently made in stainless steel bowls (erlenmeyer flasks on the list of to be purchased items) so any hint of krausen is the best option I have to look for active fermentation (and I mean an absolute slight hint of foam and I'm happy to pitch).

The distinction between propagating/stepping up and starters is really useful - I've intuitively done it in a very similar way to the way you describe but often wondered if I was getting it wrong (I pitch the whole starter wort) as so many describe chilling and dropping out and pitching only slurry.

Cheers for the post.

@ Boagsy - can't give you the scientific info but I make starters the way you describe. No decanting for me. I keep my temps around ferment temp and don't agitate once any sign of fermentation has started (either pitch then or add more wort depending on the stage). Add extra wort when I think it's ready, pitch the lot when I think it's ready. I'm pretty rough with it all but it seems to work.

 

[Screwtop]

My starters are currently made in stainless steel bowls (erlenmeyer flasks on the list of to be purchased items)

A,

2.4L Berri fruit juice bottles are great and cheap, and easy to observe the goins'on

Screwy

 

[davo4772]

Jamal Has a website which covers this kind of thing. My understanding is he is a bit of a guru so worth a look.

www.mrmalty.com


Dave

 

[Dazza_devil]

@ Boagsy - can't give you the scientific info but I make starters the way you describe. No decanting for me. I keep my temps around ferment temp and don't agitate once any sign of fermentation has started (either pitch then or add more wort depending on the stage). Add extra wort when I think it's ready, pitch the lot when I think it's ready. I'm pretty rough with it all but it seems to work.

I do chill(longer the better but usually around 2 days) and decant my final sized starter. While my main wort is cooling to pitching temp in my fermentation fridge I feed the slurry around 1 or 2 litres of cooled batch wort. By the time I'm at pitching temp my starters are well and truely active and acclimatised to the intended environment. With this method there is usually very little lag time with highly visible signs of fermentation under 4 hours from pitching.

 

[Stuster]

NO THATS WHAT WE ARE AFTER IN OUR STEPPING UP! Pitching a smack pack into 1 or 2 litres of wort as a starter produces very little growth, the yeast does not need to multiply is this much wort and begins fermentation right off the bat.

I'm not sure why you are disagreeing with me, Screwy, as I was agreeing with you. However, I don't believe your statement above is true. Of course you get growth in a 2L starter. Have a look at the MrMalty page here taken from the WL and Wyeast info (which I can't find on a quick search of their pages directly but I'm sure is there somewhere).

On the White Labs web site (09/07/2005) it states, "If a starter is made from a fresh vial, one vial can be added directly to a 2 liter starter, which in 2 days will grow to approximately 240 billion cells."

Pitching a Wyeast Activator pack gives the following results within 12 to 18 hours:

* 1 liter starter = about 150 billion cells
* 2 liter starter = about 200 billion cells
* 1 liter starter, then pitched into 4 liter starter = 400 billion cells

I realise we have got away from your original post and I thought your original photo was very useful to those new to starters.

 

[therook]

Screwy....are you using a Stir Plate?

Rook

 

[Nick JD]

Hey Nick how do you harvest and store your yeast...i might give it a go.

When you get your last bottle out of your fermenter, slowly swirl the trub and fill throughly sanitised 300ml or 600ml PET bottles with the trub. It's the same as using a "cup of slurry", 'cept your cup is stored with beer on top of it. In this way, your first brew is your "starter" - it's just a big one.

No doubt there are a million things wrong with this practice, but it works for me.

I'm gonna try screwy's starter method for my next triple.

 

[Screwtop]

Screwy....are you using a Stir Plate?

Rook

Yes mate, but only until the STEP reaches krausen, then it's off the stirplate. Made a few beautifully oxidised starters/steps by leaving it on the stirplate, makes stinky beer. Couldn't find my 3 stirbars in the new shed/brewery for this one, had to order one from G&G, they'll turn up now :lol:

Screwy

 

[manticle]

A,

2.4L Berri fruit juice bottles are great and cheap, and easy to observe the goins'on

Screwy

Good point. I use juice bottles and vinegar bottles (see through PET) for making ice bricks so no idea why I never thought of them for starter bottles.