A Question On Herms And Rims

[browndog]

Hi Folks,
With a decent bonus coming up at work soon, I've been collecting some new gear for a new brewery, ie march pump, nasa burner, bought a welder and got some steel for a frame. Instead of the three tier system I have, I want to build a single tier system and use the pump so as the only thing to lift is the fermenter to the fridge. I've been reading about herms and rims and come to the conclusion (and this is more than likely wrong) that basically all they do is maintain a constant temperature in the mash tun. I spent some considerable time building an insulated aluminium and S/S tun that looses aprox 1C in 90 mins. My question is would there be any real benefits going to the trouble of building either of those systems when my mash tun is well up to the task?


cheers

Browndog

 

[Batz]

Hi Folks,
With a decent bonus coming up at work soon, I've been collecting some new gear for a new brewery, ie march pump, nasa burner, bought a welder and got some steel for a frame. Instead of the three tier system I have, I want to build a single tier system and use the pump so as the only thing to lift is the fermenter to the fridge. I've been reading about herms and rims and come to the conclusion (and this is more than likely wrong) that basically all they do is maintain a constant temperature in the mash tun. I spent some considerable time building an insulated aluminium and S/S tun that looses aprox 1C in 90 mins. My question is would there be any real benefits going to the trouble of building either of those systems when my mash tun is well up to the task?


cheers

Browndog

That depends if you enjoy fiddling with your system Browndog,I am sure what you have works.
Why change it?Some of us can't help ourselves,if I am not building,thinking about or collecting stuff for a brewery I am not happy.
Really that's what I love doing because it's my hobbie,but if you have a system that delivers beer you enjoy why change?
By the way if I do build something that works well...I won't be happy I'll change it :blink:

Batz

 

[big d]

Im always on the look out for odds and ends just like batz.My ultimate look out at the moment is for SS RHS that ive seen at work on the plant expansion.Havent located the lengths yet but give me time.That and heaps of other brew porn.

Cheers
Big D

 

[Jye]

Hi Folks,
With a decent bonus coming up at work soon, I've been collecting some new gear for a new brewery, ie march pump, nasa burner, bought a welder and got some steel for a frame. Instead of the three tier system I have, I want to build a single tier system and use the pump so as the only thing to lift is the fermenter to the fridge. I've been reading about herms and rims and come to the conclusion (and this is more than likely wrong) that basically all they do is maintain a constant temperature in the mash tun. I spent some considerable time building an insulated aluminium and S/S tun that looses aprox 1C in 90 mins. My question is would there be any real benefits going to the trouble of building either of those systems when my mash tun is well up to the task?


cheers

Browndog

Hey Browndog, I think a herm has 4 main features, which only 1 or 2 would be of benefit to you since your mash tun is so well built.

1. It maintains the mash temp but this is not of any benefit since you only loose 1C over 90min.
2. Even Mash Temp because the wort is continually being cycled through the mash. For your tun I would be inclined to add a motor with a stirrer instead of a herms.
3. Increased clarity, but this is wasted when batch sparging.
4. and step mashing, but it is just as easy and quicker to add boiling water.

Then as Batz said if you like to build stuff... and by the look of your gear you do

 

[berazafi]

Hi Folks,
With a decent bonus coming up at work soon, I've been collecting some new gear for a new brewery, ie march pump, nasa burner, bought a welder and got some steel for a frame. Instead of the three tier system I have, I want to build a single tier system and use the pump so as the only thing to lift is the fermenter to the fridge. I've been reading about herms and rims and come to the conclusion (and this is more than likely wrong) that basically all they do is maintain a constant temperature in the mash tun. I spent some considerable time building an insulated aluminium and S/S tun that looses aprox 1C in 90 mins. My question is would there be any real benefits going to the trouble of building either of those systems when my mash tun is well up to the task?


cheers

Browndog

Hey Browndog, I think a herm has 4 main features, which only 1 or 2 would be of benefit to you since your mash tun is so well built.

1. It maintains the mash temp but this is not of any benefit since you only loose 1C over 90min.
2. Even Mash Temp because the wort is continually being cycled through the mash. For your tun I would be inclined to add a motor with a stirrer instead of a herms.
3. Increased clarity, but this is wasted when batch sparging.
4. and step mashing, but it is just as easy and quicker to add boiling water.

Then as Batz said if you like to build stuff... and by the look of your gear you do

Sorry Jye just a question on point 2 clarity

With the batch sparge would you just run off the first runnings (which will be clear), then fill and recirculate again until clear, then run off

Or am i missing somthing

 

[Jye]

Sorry Jye just a question on point 2 clarity

With the batch sparge would you just run off the first runnings (which will be clear), then fill and recirculate again until clear, then run off

Or am i missing somthing

Yes you can do this but ideally with batch sparging you want 2 equal run offs, this generally requires addition of more water at the end of the mash. Adding heated water also raises the mash bed temp and makes it easier for the sugars to dissolves and increase you efficiency.

At the end of the mash I recirculate through a piece of polycarbonate attached to a manifold and watch the wort clear over 5-10min, when I think it is clear enough I pump it into my kettle. IMHO recirculating is good but not to the extend of a herms for batch sparging since you are going to be destroying the grain bed when mixing in the sparge water.

 

[berazafi]

Jye

But cant you recirculate with the sparge water in there until the grain bed is again settled and running clear, then drain, then do all over again

 

[Jye]

Jye

But cant you recirculate with the sparge water in there until the grain bed is again settled and running clear, then drain, then do all over again

Thats exactly what I do and you dont need a herms to do it.

Can somebody with a herms say if the clarity increases much between 10 and 60mins of recirculation?

A pic of the wort at the beginning of recirculation and the manifold.

 

[browndog]

Yes Jye, I can see your points. My thermocouple is located in the middle of the mash so it is quite possible the mash at the wall of the tun could be anywhere up to 5C or more lower than in the middle. I'm going to have to mull over this now. Ah... the joys of brewing. Jye did I read on a post that you use your pump for whirlpooling? I think I'd definitely like to incorporate tha feature.

cheers

Browndog

 

[razz]

Jye

But cant you recirculate with the sparge water in there until the grain bed is again settled and running clear, then drain, then do all over again

Thats exactly what I do and you dont need a herms to do it.

Can somebody with a herms say if the clarity increases much between 10 and 60mins of recirculation?

A pic of the wort at the beginning of recirculation and the manifold.
View attachment 8001 View attachment 8002

Morning all. I fly sparge with a herms and I find that the liqour will run very clear after the first 5-10 mins. I generally don't recirc more than about 20 mins at a time because I eventually get some compaction. FWIW I have also found that recirc does little for efficiency, so I use it for clarity and step mashing.

 

[Jye]

Jye did I read on a post that you use your pump for whirlpooling? I think I'd definitely like to incorporate tha feature.

cheers

Browndog

Yep, check out this thread.

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

Jye, item 3 is nonsense.

I have a herms, I batch sparge and I have clear beer.

 

[browndog]

Jye, I see that you are cooling and whirlpooling at the same time, makes more sense I guess. More things to consider now...

cheers

Browndog

 

[vlbaby]

Jye, item 3 is nonsense.

I have a herms, I batch sparge and I have clear beer.

I use a herms and batch sparge also and still have clear wort. But its true that after recirculating for 60 mins or so with the herms, you have to stuff it all up again when time come to sparge. However, it only takes 10min of recirculation to get back to where you started again. So I would say that clarity is not a disadvantage of using a herms and batch sparging, but on the other hand its not neccesarily an advantage either as they same clarity could be achieved with just a pump as Jye points out.
But the question I must ask you Jye, why would you go to all the trouble of piping in a pump and return manifold and not add the HERMS coil? Your 90% of the way to having a herms already.

cheers

vl.

 

[Jye]

But the question I must ask you Jye, why would you go to all the trouble of piping in a pump and return manifold and not add the HERMS coil? Your 90% of the way to having a herms already.

cheers

vl.

Anyone with a pump can add a manifold to their gear in about 30min and if I was 90% of the way to a herms I would most likely have one At the moment I dont need one but being someone who tinkers I may end up with a herms when I run out of other projects... and that could be a while :blink:

 

[vlbaby]

Are you an immersion chiller-er Jye? Just chuck that into your HLT if you have,and you've got a HERMS.

 

[browndog]

That depends if you enjoy fiddling with your system Browndog,I am sure what you have works.
Why change it?Some of us can't help ourselves,if I am not building,thinking about or collecting stuff for a brewery I am not happy.
Really that's what I love doing because it's my hobbie,but if you have a system that delivers beer you enjoy why change?
By the way if I do build something that works well...I won't be happy I'll change it

Hey Batz,
I like to tinker and I've decided I like the idea of being able to punch in the mash temp and let the gizmos do their work, so it is one Herms unit coming up. Like you I am going to have a seperate heat exchanger (20L urn) to save worrying about having to change temps of the HLT for sparging etc. I'll use a dixcell for the HLT and one for the heat exchanger/urn. I have a coil of 3/8th copper tube about 3-4m in length, do you think this will be OK for the heat exchanger and will the march pump have sufficient head for that tubing?

cheers

Browndog

 

[vlbaby]

browndog,
here's an alternative to the urn if your interested. Uses approx 1 m of 3/8' tubing. Makes temperature changes much faster due to its smaller thermal mass. You'll need a temperature controller for it however.




cheers

vl.

 

[browndog]

That is great looking effort there VL, had I not already have an urn sitting around I'd definitely go down that track.


cheers

Browndog

 

[Batz]

That depends if you enjoy fiddling with your system Browndog,I am sure what you have works.
Why change it?Some of us can't help ourselves,if I am not building,thinking about or collecting stuff for a brewery I am not happy.
Really that's what I love doing because it's my hobbie,but if you have a system that delivers beer you enjoy why change?
By the way if I do build something that works well...I won't be happy I'll change it

Hey Batz,
I like to tinker and I've decided I like the idea of being able to punch in the mash temp and let the gizmos do their work, so it is one Herms unit coming up. Like you I am going to have a seperate heat exchanger (20L urn) to save worrying about having to change temps of the HLT for sparging etc. I'll use a dixcell for the HLT and one for the heat exchanger/urn. I have a coil of 3/8th copper tube about 3-4m in length, do you think this will be OK for the heat exchanger and will the march pump have sufficient head for that tubing?

cheers

Browndog

Well you have the same as me to the point of your 3/8" tubing,I use 1/2.
It will work just as well Browndog,perhaps better.Mine pumps a head of around .75 m.and then through 8m of 1/2" tubing.This still keeps a nice steady flow.
Having control over your mash temperture via a twist of a dial is just so good.

Batz