A Guide To Mashing And Batch Sparging

[PistolPatch]

Pat, that depends on how you batch sparge, I drain my mash tun of wort and then add all my sparge in one hit, a single batch sparge. Others add a small amount of water and then runoff to give them 2 batch sparges.

You raise another good point. I've been meaning to change Post #1 to reflect that the method I described is just one way of batch-sparging. The problem is I can't remember what the proper name is for the method I've described - it's not in BeerSmith. Any ideas?

Also Andrew, I was wondering how the brew you did by mashing in full volume ended up tasting?

Yet another variation Tangent! Further reason to change Post #1. I'm trying to think of the pros to letting the wort sit but nothing obvious is coming to mind. Can you remember what they were?

Thanks for all the interesting input,
Pat

 

[Wardhog]

I'm about to start up normal size (~23L) AG batches, and want to do batch sparging as my equipment allows it.
Thanks for your helpful post, PP, but it's left me with a question. I've already done two small batch AGs where I had all the grain mashing inside a nylon mesh bag that sat inside an esky.
The process I've used in the past went like this:

Lift bag o' grains out of mash water after 90 minutes.
Empty mash water into kettle
Add 1st sparge water into esky, put bag o' grain back (same volume as mash water, but grain won't keep half this lot)
Stir, sit 15 min.
Lift bag o' grain out, empty 1st sparge water into kettle, add 2nd sparge water to esky (same volume as 1st)
Stir, sit 15min
Bag o' grain out, empty 2nd sparge water into kettle, grain into bin.

This differs from your instructions, PP. Is it an invalid method? If so, why?

I don't really understand why you don't empty out the mash water entirely before adding the 1st sparge water.

Edit : It appears I'm not doing a mashout. How important is mashout? What kind of evil will befall my beer if a mashout is not done? (I thought the two small batch AGs tasted just wonderful)

 

[PistolPatch]

There's no worries with what you've done there Wardhog - great stuff. The nylon bag is just replacing the manifold that most people use to filter their mash in batch sparging.

I wouldn't know what differences in taste occur between mashing out and not mashing out. Both methods are regarded as valid and I suspect that any difference would be probably undetectable to most people.

Mashing out will allow you to get your sparging water to a higher temperature than if you don't which means you'd get slightly higher efficiency.

It's a shame there's not a tap at the bottom of your esky. This would save you having to take the bag out repeatedly which would make life a little easier. Maybe a syphon hose??? Another alternative is BIAB if your bag and kettle are big enough.

It's great you posted the above as it shows another example of just how flexible batch sparging can be.

Good on ya,
Pat

 

[stoutdrinker]

I must add my 2c worth here.

Last Sept/Oct when I finally did my first AG, I found this guide invaluable. After ready How to Brew by Palmer & stacks off the web I thought I had my procedure for AG'ing sorted out but then the more I thought about it the more confusing some of my calculations became.

Then arrived PP's guide to sparging. It certainly demystified the whole process!. Ok so after the grand total of say 6 AG's I'm no expert, but this guide (now even with pics) got me started with a straight forward process that I can follow each time.

So for those about to start AG, grab what gear you can, keep things simple & follow PP's guide. It really is easy. Give it a go.

Now comes the refining of the malt/hops/yeast to make good beer great beer.

Cheers PP.

 

[poppa joe]

Friday 26.
Filled my BIAB Bucket in Bucket...Heated..Approx 30 lt
Wacked in the grains 5 1/2 Kilo..Pale. Crystal .Wheat..
Put in a pond pump and recirculated the mash..
Boiled(after removing grains )
Got approx 25 lt..1050...
No chill,,,,,,,method..
Now down to 1015..US 56...(Monday)
Is the pond pump a good idea for recirc.
Standing by with Umbrella and Flame suit on
Cheers
PJ
P.S. Go easy ITS MY FIRST... :super:

 

[PostModern]

Edit : It appears I'm not doing a mashout. How important is mashout? What kind of evil will befall my beer if a mashout is not done? (I thought the two small batch AGs tasted just wonderful)

Mashout opens the up cellulose in the grain and assists in getting more extract out of the mash. You can just put in 78 deg water for your second batch, give it a few mins to work on the grain and proceed as you did. It'll add a couple points of gravity over just using water at strike temp, whether you batch, fly, flood or BIAB. Don't go too hot, as above a certain pH in combination with temp, you'll extract tannins from the grain husks.

 

[sanders4_]

Excellent thread!

There is so much on AHB on sparging, it gets overwhelming. I've been reading up on all grain, but its never as good first hand experience, so thanks PistolPatch for the effort here, much appreciated

The question i have relates to some info in John Palmers "How to Brew". He recommends a minimum grain bed depth of 10cm, but preferably 20-40cm to help filter the wort. I was planning AG recipies of 3.5 to 5kg of grain, what volume will 5kg of grain be, i.e. the grain bed volume? According to Palmer, about 2L of water per kilo of grain will give a 1:1 water to grain ratio. So 5kg of grain will give a grain bed volume of 10 litres?

It seems if want a 10cm grain bed, a pretty narrow, tall mash tun is needed?

In a 50L keg mash tun (dia. 39cm), you would need 12L of grain bed to get 10cm depth! i.e. 6kg of grain (correct me if i'm wrong), meaning i wouldn't use one until i was doing 6kg+ batches.

PistolPatch, you use a rectangular esky, what depth grain bed did you get with the 6kg of grain you used? I would doubt it was 10cm based on the surfance area of your esky/mash tun? Does it matter?

Seems a lot of AHBrewers are doing 5-6kg batches in 50-60 litre tuns?

I will batch sparging reading after this reading AHB threads, but wanted to clear something up after reading the following: :huh:

MASHING AND BATCH SPARGING

The other great thing about batch sparging, is that it is not critical where your manifold lies in the esky. Youve probably read a lot about this. Same with grain bed depth...The only thing the manifold and grain bed depth does is filter the beer. All we did was make sure my braid was lying on the bottom after we did the stir up.

So grain bed depth doesn't matter as much with batch sparging?
I know Palmer's recommendations are based on fly sparging (where grain depth and manifold design are more important for even flow rates), but I thought grain bed depth was always important, no matter what sparging method was used, as its still needed to filter/clear the wort?

I picked up a 25L willow esky ($20) to use as a mash tun cause i thought anything bigger wouldn't give me enough grain bed depth for a 5kg batch. Now i'm thinking i should have got a bigger one to give me more flexibility, like this esky here allowing for larger batches, larger mash outs, etc.

Any help from experienced all-grainers would be appreciated

- sanders

 

[Adamt]

Don't worry about mash depth at all if you are batch sparging. Mash depth only comes into play (where sparging is concerned anyway) with fly sparging. A shallow mash allows channelling to occur a lot easier. Chanelling is not a problem with batch sparging; you are stirring the mash after you add your sparge water, and you are running off at max speed, increasing the pressure drop over the mash, reducing the chance of channelling.

I would say a 40L cooler is a good size; this allows for good flexibility in mash sizes when making standard batches (20-25L).

However, theres no reason why you have to do "standard batches". Nothing wrong with doing 15L batches. That way you only need a smaller kettle, smaller burner, and you are able to experiment/brew a lot more often.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[sanders4_]

Don't worry about mash depth at all if you are batch sparging.

Wouldn't too shallow grain bed prove to be ineffective at filtering the wort, even with batch sparging?

you are stirring the mash after you add your sparge water, and you are running off at max speed

My understanding was you run the wort out at around 1L/minute to get good extraction and prevent a stuck sparge? Wouldn't max speed cause the sparge to stick?

:huh:

 

[Zizzle]

Wouldn't too shallow grain bed prove to be ineffective at filtering the wort, even with batch sparging?

I wouldn't get to carried away with going after a clear wort:

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd just like to point out that there may not be such a huge need for recirculating. Research in the last ten years seems to show that getting a crystal clear run-off is not the benefit it was thought to be. I'm certainly not saying it will hurt your beer to do it, but it may be of little or no benefit. Now if you feel better doing it, then go right ahead, but just don't say I didn't try to save you some work.

If anybody's interested in reading a load of science :blink: the study is here. Basically, the study showed that there was almost no difference between beers made with clear or turbid wort from the lauter tun. Taste tests were the same, clear wort beers kept slightly better, but fermentation and head retention were better from the cloudy wort.

Anyway, as I say, not to put you off if you want to do this, more to reassure people that there's no need to go crazy getting crystal clear wort. As long as you keep the big bits out of the boil, you'll be fine.

 

[sanders4_]

Thanks for the posts Adamt and Zizzle, they've really helped a lot!

 

[PostModern]

Wouldn't too shallow grain bed prove to be ineffective at filtering the wort, even with batch sparging?

Floating mash!

I've been really slack lately with measuring stuff. I generally brew beers with a bucket of base malt, a bowl of munich, couple of cups of crystal... etc, so take what I say with a grain of salt (or about a handful of gypsum). I only brew to style guidelines when I'm looking for something special too, which is why you see things like "Something resembling an Alt" in my sig.

I mash in a 44L rectangular tun, so regular batches don't have enormous depth like they would in a cylindrical drink cooler or keg-tun, so my experiences, despite the random grainbills would be relevant to what you're looking for.

If you crack fairly coarsely (kernel cracked into about 2-3 large pieces and about 30% flour) and don't stir too much at dough-in the mash floats! Lautering is a dream, you barely need to recirculate. Search this forum for Scotty's (aka ///) comments on the floating mash. The depth of the bed is irrelevant. I though Scotty was mad when he suggested it, but the floating mash beers coming out of my kettle have been great. Don't get hung up looking for 80%+ efficiency or anything tho. I averaged about 75% when I was weighing my grain. The bucket measure (~9L) yields worts of 21 litres at 1.054 and up. Sometimes mill fine and batch sparge, efficiency is about the same as the floating mash method. Anyway, I'm far from an expert, just my humble observations.

 

[sanders4_]

I have a question with mashing. Palmers book recommended a mash ratio range of 3L/kg to 4L/kg to mash in, and then recommends using 1.5 to 2 times the mash volume to sparge.

For example, American Pale Ale, 5kg of grain to produce a post-boil final volume of 23L.

Using 3L/kg, I would need 15L in the mash tun, with 5L of that lost to the grain. So 10L run out into the boiler.

According to Palmers suggestion, i would then use 22L of sparge water (15*1.5)

So the boiler would end up with 32 litres. A long way from 23L even with boiling loss, trub loss, etc.

Question is, how important is it and what is the benefit of having a volume of sparge water 1.5 times the mash volume, seems like its adding more water than i want, and diluting the OG unless a lot of extra boiling losses takes place, which i don't want to do if i don't have to.

Would using less that 1.5 times hurt efficiency?

I've noticed most people here use a mash ratio of 2.5L/kg, not Palmers recommended minimum ratio of 3L/kg. Is this to keep volumes down, or for more maltiness?

Help appreciated

Sanders

 

[chovain]

So the boiler would end up with 32 litres. A long way from 23L even with boiling loss, trub loss, etc.

Question is, how important is it and what is the benefit of having a volume of sparge water 1.5 times the mash volume, seems like its adding more water than i want, and diluting the OG unless a lot of extra boiling losses takes place, which i don't want to do if i don't have to.

Would using less that 1.5 times hurt efficiency?

I personally think Palmer's numbers are out by a little. I usually dough in at a little above 2.5L/kg. I usually sparge with the same volume as I dough in, but that doesn't count my mash-out infusion. I normally end up with about 28L at the start of the boil, but if I had the choice, I'd sparge more, and boil about 32 litres. As it is, I struggle to make a 23L batch with a 28L boil, and I normally need to add a couple of L top up to the fermenter. Once you've lost a couple of litres to trub and kettle dead-space, you don't have much room for evaporation in there.

If you sparge less, you will generally reduce your efficiency. That's not necessarily a bad thing though (as too much sparging may put things you don't want in the wort).

Give it a shot with whatever figures you feel like, and measure your losses. If you find yourself struggling for both efficiency and volume, try increasing your sparge. If your efficiency is healthy and you are throwing away good wort at the end, then try knocking the sparge back a bit. What works for you will depend heavily on your kit.

 

[Screwtop]

Not from reading the book, but from trial and error I am just about knock on those numbers for a 5kg batch with a mash efficiency in the high 80's. I boil 32 - 33L for a batch of 24L and use 3.5L/Kg for mash in volume.

I use temp steps, so starting with this volume is fine, this profile suits my system, it's all about YOUR system and what works for you.

 

[4bc]

Hi Everyone

Just a quick question regarding this method. I am going to undertake it this weekend but i have one question i cant find an answer to.

The OP has a mash volume of 15L
Then adds 7 L to bring up to sparge volume. = 22L
Then drains off and adds remaining 15L sparge water and drains = 37L?

But Boil volume was stated at 30L

Do you not completely drain the 2nd sparge to achieve your boil volume or is there approx 7L lost to grain water absorbtion or something else i am missing.

Many thanks from a AG novice!

 

[avaneyk]

Hi Everyone

Just a quick question regarding this method. I am going to undertake it this weekend but i have one question i cant find an answer to.

The OP has a mash volume of 15L
Then adds 7 L to bring up to sparge volume. = 22L
Then drains off and adds remaining 15L sparge water and drains = 37L?

But Boil volume was stated at 30L

Do you not completely drain the 2nd sparge to achieve your boil volume or is there approx 7L lost to grain water absorbtion or something else i am missing.

Many thanks from a AG novice!

The grain will absorb and retain some of the water you mash with. Also, mash tuns that use a manifold have some deadspace where you won't be able to drain all the liquid once it gets below the manifold level. Because of this, you get less wort out of the mash tun than the amount of water you put in.

Hope this helps,
Andrew.

 

[4bc]

Hope this helps,
Andrew.

Thanks for the reply, I thought that might be the case. Just thought I would check just incase as it wasn't mentioned in the posts! Happy brewing all!

 

[welly2]

This is brilliant and was massively helpful tonight for my first batch sparge brew session. Seemed to work a treat, my efficiency was up and all sorts. Cheers!