2012 Hop Plantations
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Yob
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this is STILL utter ********... Dwarf Cluster do not exist...
http://adha.us/dwarf-hops
I'd love to know how you qualify this... and the fact they didnt grow above 3 meters doesnt cut it...
http://adha.us/dwarf-hops
I'd love to know how you qualify this... and the fact they didnt grow above 3 meters doesnt cut it...
Yob
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Yeah, you got nuthin… as usual
hoppy2B
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Dwarfs grow their hops on trellis according to the link provided by Yob above. 
I don't understand the point you're trying to make Yob. I'm calling them dwarf because they are short. Mine have only grown to 3 metres.
I'm trying to get some rhizome in from others who are growing Cluster so I can compare. As a precaution I'm calling them dwarf so people who get them from me know what they are getting, until I can establish whether they are the same as other Cluster.
Interestingly the cones on the dwarfs pictured on the ADHA website are very tight, much like the cones on my dwarf. :blink:
I don't understand the point you're trying to make Yob. I'm calling them dwarf because they are short. Mine have only grown to 3 metres.
I'm trying to get some rhizome in from others who are growing Cluster so I can compare. As a precaution I'm calling them dwarf so people who get them from me know what they are getting, until I can establish whether they are the same as other Cluster.
Interestingly the cones on the dwarfs pictured on the ADHA website are very tight, much like the cones on my dwarf. :blink:
Yob
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Vertically challenged I believe is what you grow H2b, dwarf varieties are specifically bred.. It's clear that you have done zero research into this, if you had you would have stopped this nonsense a long time ago... You persist in your way but do nothing support your misguided belief.
hoppy2B
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They might be bred specifically for trellis and known as dwarf, but I don't believe that should limit the use of the word to only those bred specifically for the purpose.
I think a more accurate definition is the mature height of the plant. As mentioned on that site, dwarf hops grow to 3 metres.
If the ADHA set out to produce a dwarf and planted seeds bred specifically for the purpose and they grew to 6 metres would they call them dwarf? I think not. So if someone set out to grow a normal hop plant from seed and it only grew to 3 metres at maturity why would it not be acceptable to call it dwarf?
Similarly, if the Cluster I have differs from other Cluster, why should I not call it dwarf based on the fact it only grows to 3 metres?
The best guideline for calling hops dwarf would have to be the fact they only grow to 3 metres. Anything else seems very illogical.
I think a more accurate definition is the mature height of the plant. As mentioned on that site, dwarf hops grow to 3 metres.
If the ADHA set out to produce a dwarf and planted seeds bred specifically for the purpose and they grew to 6 metres would they call them dwarf? I think not. So if someone set out to grow a normal hop plant from seed and it only grew to 3 metres at maturity why would it not be acceptable to call it dwarf?
Similarly, if the Cluster I have differs from other Cluster, why should I not call it dwarf based on the fact it only grows to 3 metres?
The best guideline for calling hops dwarf would have to be the fact they only grow to 3 metres. Anything else seems very illogical.
of mice and gods
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I don't think we can definitively say either way if hoppy2B's cluster is or isn't a "dwarf" (without arguing the semantics of cultivar registration, plant breeders rights and patents).
Plants are selected generally selected from seed trials due to the large amount of genetic variation you will get a range of different characteristics such as leaf shape, petiole length, various habits and floral mutations. Say 1,000 seeds are selected for germination. They will be culled (multiple times) down to maybe 1-6 individuals that have met the growers criteria and are seen to be 'stable' in holding that mutation/variation without wanting to revert back to it's typical specific trait. These selected plants may then be vegetatively propagated to ensure that particular variation continues.
So, although maybe not officially recognised or registered as a cultivar, it is possible hoppy2B could have a plant with 'dwarf' characteristics. At some point the parent plant was derived from seed, if this initial seed carried the biological data for shorter stature and then was cloned/propagated from rhizome cuttings..
The other side of the coin is that the shorter stature may be due to disease/viral stunting or inadequate plant cultural practise. Who knows?
Anyway, I've just got some of hoppy's Cluster so I look forwards to trialling it myself.
Food for thought, hopefully not fuel to the fire.
Al
Plants are selected generally selected from seed trials due to the large amount of genetic variation you will get a range of different characteristics such as leaf shape, petiole length, various habits and floral mutations. Say 1,000 seeds are selected for germination. They will be culled (multiple times) down to maybe 1-6 individuals that have met the growers criteria and are seen to be 'stable' in holding that mutation/variation without wanting to revert back to it's typical specific trait. These selected plants may then be vegetatively propagated to ensure that particular variation continues.
So, although maybe not officially recognised or registered as a cultivar, it is possible hoppy2B could have a plant with 'dwarf' characteristics. At some point the parent plant was derived from seed, if this initial seed carried the biological data for shorter stature and then was cloned/propagated from rhizome cuttings..
The other side of the coin is that the shorter stature may be due to disease/viral stunting or inadequate plant cultural practise. Who knows?
Anyway, I've just got some of hoppy's Cluster so I look forwards to trialling it myself.
Food for thought, hopefully not fuel to the fire.
Al
Yob
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My EKG grew to 7m last year.. this year it grew to 3...
must have been afflicted by dwarfistitis this year... maybe next year it will switch back..
must have been afflicted by dwarfistitis this year... maybe next year it will switch back..
Liam_snorkel
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it must have contracted dwarfism.
of mice and gods
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Yob, that's kind of what I'm getting at about the stable characteristics. If over many seasons the same plant only ever reaches a certain height while others given the same kind of conditions are growling 6+ metres, you could assume that it's probably not to do with the plant culture or seasonal variations.
But like I said, I don't know what methods are used so culture/season/disease cannot be ruled out, but nor can the potential for dwarfism.
And I understand the points from both sides of the debate. I'm just standing in the middle saying both are possible.
Al
But like I said, I don't know what methods are used so culture/season/disease cannot be ruled out, but nor can the potential for dwarfism.
And I understand the points from both sides of the debate. I'm just standing in the middle saying both are possible.
Al
KingKong
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Is it possible the variety isnt what you think it is and is in actual fact a dwarf variety? If you are sent hops you pretty much have to take the word of the person your buying / getting them from. It would be very easy to incorrectly label a hop.
Yob
Hop to it
AFAIK we dont have any dwarf hops in Australia… actual bred ones that is, sure,,there are hops that dont grow especially tall, dwarf hops it does not make,
I like your point about the labelling and to a degree, that's what hoppy is doing, mis labelling these, before you know it people start thinking it's true… it ain't..
How long has hoppy been growing these? Has he made selection processes? Are they, in fact, certifiable as dwarf cluster? If the answer is no then he shouldn't be calling them such.
I like your point about the labelling and to a degree, that's what hoppy is doing, mis labelling these, before you know it people start thinking it's true… it ain't..
How long has hoppy been growing these? Has he made selection processes? Are they, in fact, certifiable as dwarf cluster? If the answer is no then he shouldn't be calling them such.
of mice and gods
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And while I generally agree with your points Yob, just because it doesn't have a patent doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not certain you could patent the sole term 'dwarf' in relation to a whole species without using it as part of a larger cultivar name. So I guess a lot of this debate revolves around the term "Dwarf" and the meaning that each person is applying to it in this situation.
In regards to mis-labelling, I fully understand the implications of this and the potential to mislead future buyers/growers/etc, something which nobody wants. But hypothetically then how then should we handle this? If you find through freak of nature year after year your particular plant only gets to 3 metres (or 1 or 3.25, etc) but yields well. All your other varieties/plants are growing 6m+. What if the previous propagator has also noticed the same thing, how do you advise potential buyers to expect that this plant will generally only be of short stature without having to be overly politically correct?
We have a lot of faith here that things are labelled correctly, but I'm sure over many swaps that things somewhere have been mislabelled and entered into circulation. Unfortunately without some pretty intense botany and laboratory skills I think it would be hard to determine 100%. It's the risk you take when not buying from an accredited grower/seller. But even the amount of plants I've seen mislabelled in Bunnings astounds me.
In regards to mis-labelling, I fully understand the implications of this and the potential to mislead future buyers/growers/etc, something which nobody wants. But hypothetically then how then should we handle this? If you find through freak of nature year after year your particular plant only gets to 3 metres (or 1 or 3.25, etc) but yields well. All your other varieties/plants are growing 6m+. What if the previous propagator has also noticed the same thing, how do you advise potential buyers to expect that this plant will generally only be of short stature without having to be overly politically correct?
We have a lot of faith here that things are labelled correctly, but I'm sure over many swaps that things somewhere have been mislabelled and entered into circulation. Unfortunately without some pretty intense botany and laboratory skills I think it would be hard to determine 100%. It's the risk you take when not buying from an accredited grower/seller. But even the amount of plants I've seen mislabelled in Bunnings astounds me.
beerdrinkingbob
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how do we block now?, I'm done with Dwarfs and wine yeast in beer!!
DU99
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it's a freak..let's move on
Yob
Hop to it
on another topic... I love these vids.. the guy at about 1.30 with a machete must be 160 :lol:
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hoppy2B
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Actually I propagated about 55 of the dwarfs last year and they were the same as the parent plants. Also the cones look like Cluster.
I have distributed some rhizome this year with the intent of demonstrating to others that they are in fact dwarf and am attempting to import some Cluster for comparison. Also have taken into account the possibility that I may have received them incorrectly labelled. However I don't believe that is the case.
Much ado about nothing really.
I have distributed some rhizome this year with the intent of demonstrating to others that they are in fact dwarf and am attempting to import some Cluster for comparison. Also have taken into account the possibility that I may have received them incorrectly labelled. However I don't believe that is the case.
Much ado about nothing really.
