What Does Agitating Polyclar Achieve?

[afromaiko]

Can anyone please tell me exactly why it is we need to agitate Polyclar for so long? What results are we trying to achieve?

All I can think of is that it simply needs to be dissolved thoroughly and doesn't form any clumps?

How dissolved should Polyclar VT be? Is it OK to still see specks of it in the liquid?

Cheers.

 

[TidalPete]

Can anyone please tell me exactly why it is we need to agitate Polyclar for so long? What results are we trying to achieve?

All I can think of is that it simply needs to be dissolved thoroughly and doesn't form any clumps?

How dissolved should Polyclar VT be? Is it OK to still see specks of it in the liquid?

Cheers.

afromaiko,

What a coincidence? This is the second time this subject has turned up in the last 24 hours.
You wouldn't be related to Darren by any chance?

TP :beer:

 

[buttersd70]

Pretty much all the information I've found on the subject states that its for hydration...but the reasoning for the extended agitation seems to be a bit of an afterthought, as opposed to a definative statement.

But I do have a question for chemistry geeks....does agitation somehow (positively) effect the ability of the pvpp to form hydrogen bonds?

 

[Darren]

Im not a chemist but I know it does not dissolve. It does not clump like dried malt extract. Actually, it appears to disperse quite rapidly when added to water/beer.

I suspect that stirring it in water, then adding to the beer would have detrimental "cold side" effects due to the addition of dissolved oxygen after ferment.

Theoretical bonuses gained by dissolving first must be weighed up against the fact that it works perfectly well simply adding a teaspoon straight into the keg of beer at the time of racking, or if I am lazy, sprinkled on top after the keg has been in the fridge for a few days.

Personally, I don't actually like the stuff. I always wonder how many of those minute PVPP particles end-up in my stomach.
Beer clears by itself

cheers

Darren

 

[afromaiko]

afromaiko,

What a coincidence? This is the second time this subject has turned up in the last 24 hours.
You wouldn't be related to Darren by any chance?

TP :beer:

Ahh, I just found it hiding in the Erlenmeyer Flask discussion!

I've just been adding it to about a third of a stubby of boiled water. Give it a shake every few minutes and then dump it into the fermenter. Leave for an hour or more before filtering into the keg.

Seems to work OK. But I was wondering whether I needed to find some way of automatically agitating it or not... the less work I have to do, the better!

If it's only to hydrate it, then I think we just need ensure that all particles are equally exposed to the water and that no lumps are formed.

EDIT:

Hmm. Just read Darren's post above.. I wonder, I might give 'no-agitating' a shot. Just sprinkle it on top you say? Surely that would take a while to settle and wouldn't disperse as well?

 

[Ross]

Hydrating as per the manufacturers instructions will give you more bang for your buck.
It will also work fine without agitating, you will just need to add a little more.


cheers Ross

 

[Batz]

I always thought it had something to do with charging the stuff,the bad old chill haze thingys stick to it because of a positive or negative charge. :huh: :huh:

It's a plastic,bit like rubbing a biro on a cloth then picking up a bit of paper.

Batz

 

[buttersd70]

I always thought it had something to do with charging the stuff,the bad old chill haze thingys stick to it because of a positive or negative charge. :huh: :huh:

It's a plastic,bit like rubbing a biro on a cloth then picking up a bit of paper.

Batz

This is the reason I asked the question I did.....I certainly don't know for fact, but have a suspicion that agitation may help form stronger H bonds. But as I said, I'm no chemist, and could be entirely wrong.....

But, the instructions (afaik regardless of the manufacturer), say to agitate, so agitate I will. But as always, I'm interested in the philosophical "whyyyy....?"

 

[Dicko ACT]

Hydrating as per the manufacturers instructions will give you more bang for your buck.
It will also work fine without agitating, you will just need to add a little more.


cheers Ross

I'm with Ross...

Unfortunately I cant give you any scientific reasoning, however using Isinglass from Ross improved the clarity of my AG brews. The last batch I did, I put the Isinglass onto a stir plate for an hour and the results are awesome. This is by far the clearest brew I've ever brewed.

 

[afromaiko]

But as always, I'm interested in the philosophical "whyyyy....?"

:lol:

Yeah I also like to know why I'm doing something.

Hydrating as per the manufacturers instructions will give you more bang for your buck.
It will also work fine without agitating, you will just need to add a little more.

But this will have to satisfy me for the moment until a better reason comes along!

 

[Darren]

Butters,

I will tell you why. Its because it not made for home brewing. It is a "commercial" product. On the home brew level it does not matter a stuff if you "rehydrate" because you can easily move your vessel.

At the microbrewery scale and above, if you dump a couple of kilo's of the stuff into a vessel, then it is likely to fall to the bottom as a clump and then there is no way to distribute it through the beer.

I like Batz's analogy on how it sticks to polytannin/protein complexes. Polyclar itself is very similar except that the particles themselves naturally repell each other.

Tidalpete, I initially rehydrated when I first used PVPP (using maunfacturers instructions). Since then I have learned that there is no need to. I did not notice a significant drop in "bang for my buck".

Interestingly, I found that you can use about 1/10 less than the manufacturer recommended. (I now use about 1 1/2 teaspoons in a 19 litre keg). Out of curiosity, how much are you using?

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

PVPP works fast, but doesn't work at all till its hydrated - takes a few minutes of agitation till its hydrated properly, and thats too late if (as most production breweries would be doing) you are injecting it into the wort stream just before you filter. ergo the instructions

In a homebrew setting I'm guessing that maybe it sinks through the first little bit of wort before its properly hydrated and doing its thing at full pace - so some of your beer is missing out on the goodness in action - and you have to use a bit more to compensate.

It'll still work fine if you sprinkle it on top and wait a few minutes then stir the fermentor up to make sure its evenly distributed in the wort. I put mine in boiling water and agitate, mainly to ensure its not got any bugs in (cant believe that Darren of all people fails to take that into account ) and because I sometimes inject it into a keg via the gas in post, so I need it liquid. Mind you... it probably doesn't have any bugs in, just being careful.

TB

 

[afromaiko]

Interestingly, I found that you can use about 1/10 less than the manufacturer recommended. (I now use about 1 1/2 teaspoons in a 19 litre keg). Out of curiosity, how much are you using?

Not sure what it works out to be in teaspoons but I'm using 10 grams. I was using 5 grams but still had a little bit of haze. Upping to 10 grams has worked most awesomely, the last brew was crystal clear. So I should probably drop down a gram at a time and see what I can get away with. Of course, brews do vary so it makes it hard to judge.

 

[Darren]

It'll still work fine if you sprinkle it on top and wait a few minutes then stir the fermentor up to make sure its evenly distributed in the wort. I put mine in boiling water and agitate, mainly to ensure its not got any bugs in (cant believe that Darren of all people fails to take that into account ) and because I sometimes inject it into a keg via the gas in post, so I need it liquid. Mind you... it probably doesn't have any bugs in, just being careful.

TB

hey thirsty,

Are you saying you think I am wrong or right? I am not sure but it appears that for once you agree with me

Please address the issues about stirring with a "flea" in a conical flask and the detrimental impact of oxygenated water on post-ferment beer.

Bugs, did you say bugs? Why of course there would be no bugs in dry PVPP as it does not contain any nutrients. Keep it in a sealed container and it will be here long after both you and I are gone. Stirring for one hour would be a nice way to add some bugs if you wanted to add some

You mean you actually sanitise a flask, sanitise water, mix then add??

You really are a novice in the home brew scene.

Perhaps you did not READ but I posted that the best way is to add it to the bottom of a keg then rack onto it.

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well, I was actually agreeing with you for a bit there, I do agitate and re-hydrate - but recognize that the most I am achieving in doing so is a slight saving in the amount of polyclar that I use, a pointless exercise for me because I just scoop it out of the big bag at work and it costs me nothing. Just a novice slavishly following the manufacturers instructions I guess.

As for bugs - I'm not saying the stuff is infected.. but it also isn't sanitary. Your garage bench isn't chock full of nutrients for bacteria... but you would still give it a spray with sanitiser if you were going to prep brewing stuff on it. That polyclar is made in a big factory and whacked into big storage bags... on the assumption that it is going to be dosed into vessels with boiling water as the instructions direct; and so doesn't need to be bacteria free - it therefore probably isn't. And yes, I do sanitise a flask and water - boil water in flask, then add the polyclar to the flask and hope/assume that the contact with the very hot water will take out the very few if any bugs that might be in it.

As for how to add the stuff, you didn't actually say that the best way to add polyclar was to add it to the bottom of a keg.... you just said that that was the way you do it. Of course, we all know that in your mind the way you do it is the exact equivalent of the best way to do it, so I suppose your mild misquoting of yourself is understandable in that instance. See... I not only read it, I read it properly.

Oxygen in the polyclar/water slurry - never thought of it really, I suspect that its a very minor issue... but it could be one after all. One that could be avoided by sprinkling dry polyclar on top of the wort or as you do, putting it in the bottom of the keg and racking onto it. Seeing as I dont have to worry about the bang for buck argument for re-hydrating, I suspect that I shall change the way I do it to way you do it. In this instance I think it probably is the best for my situation. The notion of oxygen concerns me more than the slim possibility of bugs.

So thanks for the tip, you are right - even after 10 years of on and off homebrewing, the last three all on as a moderately successful AG brewer; and 20 years in the brewing industry - I am still obviously a novice who needs to pay attention to more experienced brewers than himself. On the positive side, as you can see, even when I am not overly fond of the brewer in question... I actually do pay attention. There may be hope for me yet.

Even when I am trying... you are a VERY hard man to agree with

Thirsty

 

[buttersd70]

Butters,

I will tell you why. Its because it not made for home brewing. It is a "commercial" product. On the home brew level it does not matter a stuff if you "rehydrate" because you can easily move your vessel.

At the microbrewery scale and above, if you dump a couple of kilo's of the stuff into a vessel, then it is likely to fall to the bottom as a clump and then there is no way to distribute it through the beer.

Darren
I agree with your points as above, but I would just like to calrify, that my question of 'why' is not actually about the need to hydrate into a slurry. Rather, my simple one word why should be better phrased as "why does the manufacturer, in their instructions, regardless of whether those instructions are aimed at home, micro, or large scale operation, advise that the product needs to be agitated for an extended period of time."

I am not stating that it does in fact require this, only that this is what the manufacturers state, and am asking if anyone knows their reasoning behind it. If there is no valid reason for this instruction, then you are entirley right in the statements made within this thread, and I would happily acknowledge that. If the extendeded agitation time reccomended serves a valid purpose, then that (hitherto unknown) purpose can be weighed against the various other points raised within this thread for a logical conclusion of best practice on home scale for best application of the product.

 

[MartinS]

You really are a novice in the home brew scene.

Perhaps you did not READ but I posted that the best way is to add it to the bottom of a keg then rack onto it.

... and perhaps if you'd knock the arrogance down a notch, people might actually care what you have to say.

 

[Adamt]

Sure it may be excessive for us at home for reasons specified above, but it doesn't make it wrong.

The manufacturers probably just put that on there to keep instructions simple and cover all bases - commercial operations where pre-agitation is required and home uses where pre-agitation is not required, but won't be a detriment.

 

[Frank]

Sure it may be excessive for us at home for reasons specified above, but it doesn't make it wrong.
The manufacturers probably just put that on there to keep instructions simple and cover all bases - commercial operations where pre-agitation is required and home uses where pre-agitation is not required, but won't be a detriment.

Also know as 'Idiot Proof'. Just like fermenting tins of goo at 25C...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I know Darren didn't answer your question butters (although he kind of did) but I thought I did - Polyclar simply does not work till it is properly hydrated - an extended agitation time ensures that this has happened before you try to use it. Inject it into a tank... and the agitation time probably wasn't all that necessary, inject it into a wort not very far from where you are going to filter it out again... important.

Put it in an agitation tank and stir it for an extended time - it is going to work in every situation. As someone above said. They are covering all the bases.