Vicbrew '08 Results

[therook]

Actually, this makes sense. I didn't have a fermentation fridge, only a heat pad, a fridgemate, a blanket, and the ambient temperatures in my shed in June. I'm only really controlling the lower bounds of temperature, i.e. only making sure it doesn't get too cold. I didn't think too hot was a possibility given the conditions.

I'm having a hard time imagining the beer deviating too much from winter ambient temps in outer Melbourne (10-14C max), but it's possible, I suppose.

Does anyone know what "too hot" is in the case of S189?

I'm pretty sure Warren used this yeast early in the year and the temp got up to around 16c and it was still an excellent beer.

Rook

 

[warrenlw63]

Yeah Rook was just looking at that. My guess the only way Wardy could get acetone from S-189 would be from varnishing his nails too close to the fementer!

With a partial flamesuit on I think that BJCP training in some cases will only serve to make judges find faults in a more esoteric type of way. Thing being is the fault there in the first place?

Was it found by one or all of the judges Wardy?

Warren -

 

[Wardhog]

Was it found by one or all of the judges Wardy?

Both of them. I only got two score sheets back.

Don't get me wrong, I'd trust their opinion over my own experience. I want to take their comments and become better at brewing beer - not try to prove them wrong.

I'll put the exact wording up a bit later on.

 

[Wardhog]

Here are the comments :

1. "A good approximation of the style let down by some fermentation issues. A nice beer that presents well initially on the palate and nose but is let down by some estery/acetone characters that present on the finish. Perhaps look at your fermentation temperature and possibly yeast strain selection to address this."

2. "Investigate fermentation conditions. Acetone notes are overriding any malt flavour"

FWIW, I came 17th out of 21, but I'm still pleased with the result, it shows improvement on my behalf. I choose to blame Thirsty Boy and everyone else who came in ahead of me for overachieving and causing me to come 5th last. NEXT TIME LEAVE THE OKTOBERFESTS FOR THE MERE MORTALS TB!

Now I know what to do to avoid this fault in future - thanks fellas. I have since procured a fermenting fridge with which to use my fridgemate. I'm now led to another question.

When fermenting in a fridge with a fridgemate, do you just have the temperature probe sitting somewhere inside the fridge, or in the wort? Previously, I'd taped some sponge material to the side of the fermenter and jammed the probe between the sponge and fermenter.

 

[fraser_john]

Three of mine tended to be slightly out of style, either too much hops, too low carbonation, the fourth did well and would only need a few tweeks to do much better.

One of the four, the weizen scored really poorly because of the presence of diacetyl(.sp?), by both judges. I have never detected it, but that does not mean anything I guess. With a Lager its a matter of bringing it back up to 20 degrees or so after lagering to get rid of it.

How do you ensure its not there with a wheat???

 

[haysie]

Fraser, if your beer was on the first flight, it would make a hell of a difference, they/ judges are unwilling to score big in case of a better beer comes up.
That is totally bollucks for peeps entering, yet so true.

 

[chris.taylor.98]

Fraser, if your beer was on the first flight, it would make a hell of a difference, they/ judges are unwilling to score big in case of a better beer comes up.
That is totally bollucks for peeps entering, yet so true.

In some competitions they start off with a calibrating beer to try and ensure this is not the case. They did last year that I judged at Vicbrew and they did it at the Nationals this year too.

 

[chris.taylor.98]

Here are the comments :

1. "A good approximation of the style let down by some fermentation issues. A nice beer that presents well initially on the palate and nose but is let down by some estery/acetone characters that present on the finish. Perhaps look at your fermentation temperature and possibly yeast strain selection to address this."

2. "Investigate fermentation conditions. Acetone notes are overriding any malt flavour"

FWIW, I came 17th out of 21, but I'm still pleased with the result, it shows improvement on my behalf. I choose to blame Thirsty Boy and everyone else who came in ahead of me for overachieving and causing me to come 5th last. NEXT TIME LEAVE THE OKTOBERFESTS FOR THE MERE MORTALS TB!

Now I know what to do to avoid this fault in future - thanks fellas. I have since procured a fermenting fridge with which to use my fridgemate. I'm now led to another question.

When fermenting in a fridge with a fridgemate, do you just have the temperature probe sitting somewhere inside the fridge, or in the wort? Previously, I'd taped some sponge material to the side of the fermenter and jammed the probe between the sponge and fermenter.

In an attempt to defend the indefensible and mainly because I have been known to judge at Vicbrew before (not saying I did a great job of it mind), and cause I did bother to do the BJCP (and only just scraped through).

If you find something "odd" on all the judging sheets like "acetone" probably means the judges conferred and it seemed to resonate with them that there was a defect that they could describe as being acetone like (does not necessary mean it was acetone though, but that was the judges perception on the day).

Remember they are tasting a flight of beers and comparing them all, and I know from being in judging panels you do expect that the beers will be of a certain quality to get high scores. Also the judging process basically focuses more attention on defects in beers. It makes a big difference when you are trying beers side by side with a scoring sheet in front of you, compared with just tasting them in isolation by yourself or with your mates.

Also take if from some one who as a lot of judging sheets, you can not take a single set of score sheets as indicative of the quality of the beer you entered. You need to enter it a couple of times and then you will start to see patterns that make sense. I have one particular beer that has been judged best of show, and can last in a flight of 20 at a subsequent competition.

So hope this doesn't put you off the whole competition thing. In fact would be great to see some of you guys turn up and get involved in the judging. Its a really great way of learning a whole heap in a short amount of time, and we are always looking for more judges.

 

[Wardhog]

In an attempt to defend the indefensible and mainly because I have been known to judge at Vicbrew before (not saying I did a great job of it mind), and cause I did bother to do the BJCP (and only just scraped through).

If you find something "odd" on all the judging sheets like "acetone" probably means the judges conferred and it seemed to resonate with them that there was a defect that they could describe as being acetone like (does not necessary mean it was acetone though, but that was the judges perception on the day).

Remember they are tasting a flight of beers and comparing them all, and I know from being in judging panels you do expect that the beers will be of a certain quality to get high scores. Also the judging process basically focuses more attention on defects in beers. It makes a big difference when you are trying beers side by side with a scoring sheet in front of you, compared with just tasting them in isolation by yourself or with your mates.

Also take if from some one who as a lot of judging sheets, you can not take a single set of score sheets as indicative of the quality of the beer you entered. You need to enter it a couple of times and then you will start to see patterns that make sense. I have one particular beer that has been judged best of show, and can last in a flight of 20 at a subsequent competition.

So hope this doesn't put you off the whole competition thing. In fact would be great to see some of you guys turn up and get involved in the judging. Its a really great way of learning a whole heap in a short amount of time, and we are always looking for more judges.

Please don't misunderstand me. The judges are right. I had one of my remaining bottles last night, and there it was - acetone, or a solvent-like flavour that did indeed overpower the finish. I have had a go at judging a couple of times, and I do appreciate the difficulties judges face.

I feel the comments and score they gave were appropriate (it was just Thirsty Boy that did me in ), and I intend to use them to improve my brewing. I am not in any way upset and I am not disputing the call they gave on my beer - I just was not familiar with the fault they were talking about.

 

[Hutch]

Please don't misunderstand me. The judges are right. I had one of my remaining bottles last night, and there it was - acetone, or a solvent-like flavour that did indeed overpower the finish. I have had a go at judging a couple of times, and I do appreciate the difficulties judges face.

I feel the comments and score they gave were appropriate (it was just Thirsty Boy that did me in ), and I intend to use them to improve my brewing. I am not in any way upset and I am not disputing the call they gave on my beer - I just was not familiar with the fault they were talking about.

Hey Wardy,

One of the judge's comments refered to fermentation control, and choice of yeast. Sounds like the temp didn't get too excessive during primary, though fluctuations (day, night) can stress the yeast, and have a negative impact. The next biggy to consider would be choice of yeast. My own experience of S189 is pretty positive, however a recent lager shows clear signs of acetaldehyde, even though I pitched two rehydrated packs, and fermented at a constant 12 degrees. I also had big acetaldehyde the last time I used Us-05, hence I don't use it any more.

My experience tells me that it can be really hit or miss using dry yeast - maybe has something to do with the age of the packs, or the conditions they've been stored in. What I CAN suggest is that you consider trying the equivalent liquid strain (or one appropriate for the style) as a possible solution the "acetone" problem. I have yet to make a bad beer with liquids (at least where the yeast was responsible).

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

...Incidentally, all three judging sheets I got back from AABC judged my Best Bitter as an ESB. So obviously the judges can make some pretty fundamental mistakes some times, though the comments are more important than the overall score IMHO.

 

[devo]

I found my VICBREW judging sheets a hell of a lot more constructive, informative and legible than the sheets I got from ANAWBS.

 

[fraser_john]

...Incidentally, all three judging sheets I got back from AABC judged my Best Bitter as an ESB. So obviously the judges can make some pretty fundamental mistakes some times, though the comments are more important than the overall score IMHO.

Its gotta be tough I know, one of mine was an Imperial Stout, made in the American style, so had lots of US aroma hops, it got heavily penalised as not appropriate for style.

Oh well, I was just happy to see that none of my beers had tragic faults.

 

[Fourstar]

Its gotta be tough I know, one of mine was an Imperial Stout, made in the American style, so had lots of US aroma hops, it got heavily penalised as not appropriate for style.

Oh well, I was just happy to see that none of my beers had tragic faults.

Agreed Fraser,

It seems as thou if you are not in the 'middle band' of the style you're results may favour poorly.

For example, my APA had softened bitterness and loss of aroma as the beer was 6months old~ as well as pushing the colour/malt profile to the limits of an APA.

comments from both judges were low bitterness/aroma and strong malyness, too full of a body for the avg APA, no faults but pushing the limits of the style.

One judge did pickup the beer seemed aged and recommended next copetition to back off on the special base malts(munich) and brew ~ month beofre the comp to keep the hop profile high.

I found ti funny my beer was 40IBU but lacked bitterness. I gues thats an aged APA for ya!


Im just glad none of my beers had infections, although all low carbonation. I will have to work on my bottling transfer from a keg in the future. I even bottled w/some dex to help carbonation but that failed my Belgian Wit was almost flat.

 

[fraser_john]

I will have to work on my bottling transfer from a keg in the future. I even bottled w/some dex to help carbonation but that failed my Belgian Wit was almost flat.

I also suffered this problem, my weizen was woefully undercarbonated by the sound of it and I had added 2.5gms of sugar after transferring from keg, and that was 8 weeks out from competition day, so it should have used that sugar up!

It was a great learning experience and I have gone through the sheets and transferred the comments to a single sheet that I shall hang near my computer in the brewery. I'll refer to it when brewing those styles again and try get closer and get better scores next time!

Planning on investigating other comps and really trying to do better, this hobby is great and there is always room for improvement. I see how well other brewers have done in a number of styles and want to get closer to that(e.g. Chris Taylor).

Wish I lived closer to other brewers, I think that also hurts a little bit, not being able to bounce tastings off others

 

[Fourstar]

Definitely Fraser,

I understand why allot of brewers say 'competitions are for the academics who brew to make a stylisticly perfect beer' not just something to enjoy within a style profile.

The rules of a comp make things difficult for some that like to push the boundries of a style and lose points because of this even if its a top notch beer.

In most instances I brew 'to style' but some like the APA I entered was deliberatly pushing the top end of the malt spectrum hence the markdowns. It probably would have favoured better as an amber ale due to the SRM and malt profile. Nothing to be 'upset' about but a great launchpad to help me modify my brewing practices/style interpretations for beers i wish to enter into competitions.

Interested to see how my SNPA clone turns out in the coming weeks as this is the obvious benchmark of the style. If its the ducks nuts, i know im onto something for my 'style benchmark brewing'.

 

[Andyd]

Please don't misunderstand me. The judges are right. I had one of my remaining bottles last night, and there it was - acetone, or a solvent-like flavour that did indeed overpower the finish. I have had a go at judging a couple of times, and I do appreciate the difficulties judges face.

I feel the comments and score they gave were appropriate (it was just Thirsty Boy that did me in ), and I intend to use them to improve my brewing. I am not in any way upset and I am not disputing the call they gave on my beer - I just was not familiar with the fault they were talking about.

G'day Wardhog,

I was one of those Judges... and this is one of the ones I do recall.

One of the things I like to try to do on a scoresheet is not over-analyse, otherwise I find my comments are not as accurate as they could be. On this beer I picked up a familiar smell, which I came around to realising was similar to acetone. So despite not having a "BJCP sanctioned" source of a fault that leads to acetone specifically, it's still what I needed to write down. I"ve often had advice along these lines - "if it smells like something you know, write it down and figure out what might cause that later". I personally think a few judges spend too much time analysing what they're experiencing and trying to drop it into a BJCP "box" for a particular fault, at the risk of distorting what is actually happening in the beer.

Now, as has been pointed out (and I could potentially have been more clear on the sheet), higher-order fusel alcohols can lead to an acetone like aroma, and these could (as has been pointed out) get generated by yeast under stress, or fermentation temps that get too high (in the order of mid 20s I'd suggest, depending on the yeast used).

So it sounds like you are well on the way with some of the recommendations here. I would certainly try at least rehydrating your yeast (just in water as I understand, rather than wort), and I'd strongly recommend giving an equivalent liquid yeast a shot (I tend to have more success with these).

Also remember that fermentation temperature can sometimes exceed ambient temperature if left to its own devices, so if you can you could try hooking up a data logger to see what your peak temperatures are actually reaching (ok - maybe that's the beer geek in me coming out too strongly )

Anyway, here's to many good beers for you, and good on you for having the guts to put your beer into the comp - regardless of the result, I'm a firm believer that competitions provide an unbiased assessment of your product that will only help you improve your beers.

Regards,

Andy

 

[Darren]

Wardhog,

Thoses strong dark lagers can be a real bitch to brew correctly. Rather than temp fluctuations i would say the cetone"has come from under-pitching. The cold ferment temps and relatively high OG is always going to pose a problem with this style.

Don't worry about it. Yes can bet your lefty that there were others in the flight with a very similar fault (acetaldehyde).

cheers

darren

spellimg

 

[Wardhog]

Rather than temp fluctuations i would say the acetone has come from under-pitching.

I'd agree with you there, Darren. I find the raising of temperature to mid 20s very unlikely, and will look at types of yeast and pitching rates more closely.
I've read on this site a thousand times that you should pitch 2 packets of dry lager yeast and posted in this thread without twigging that I'd only pitched one.

 

[Leigh]

Interesting discussion guys. I've got a lager I brewed recently that has a slight acetone "twang" to it...only used 1 packet of lager yeast, so will try 2 packets when I brew this one again

 

[haysie]

Did anyone else not receive judging sheets? I received nothing. Lodged a complaint re. the judging of brewery workers, received a reply, yet no personal results.
Are there any others?

Haysie