Using a plate chiller in summer

[Newts]

Hey all,

I've been brewing for a while now and have recently moved to full volume boils doing extract. I'm working with a 70L pot now and I'm finding chilling the wort to pitching temp is hard in this weather. In the past I was brewing in a 17L pot so I'd just cool it in an ice bath in the sink and I'd get it to pitching temp in 30-45 mins.

Now I've got an electric fired keggle HLT, a gas fired 70L kettle, a Kaixin Keg King pump and a plate chiller. I'm in country WA where the temps now range from 35-42 degrees for the most part. I've got my plate chiller set up so I just hook the garden hose up to it and run it full throttle for the cooling side. With the water temp though it's only getting it down to 33-38 degrees. After this I've been putting it in the fermentation fridge and cooling to pitching temp overnight then giving a good stirring up before adding my yeast.

Just want to know what others do in this regard? Is there anything wrong with this method or is there a better one?

My LHBS told us that I need to pump the wort through the plate chiller but I've found gravity feeding provides a slower flow rate - don't see why I have to pump it through. If I do pump it I think I will need a valve on the outlet of the pump.

Any input appreciated.

Cheers,

Newts

 

[NewtownClown]

Get yourself a cheap submersible pond pump and a big bucket or esky to hold ice and water. Recirculate the ice water through the plate chiller; ice may need to be topped up.
A tap on the wort outlet to further slow the flow rate also helps

 

[amcqueen]

There are a couple of ways to tackle this, I too have the same problem. I put through a 40 litre batch of ale on Friday in the weather which was 38 degrees at the time. I connected my tap water through to an immersion chiller that was full of ice and ran the outlet to my plate chiller. I got the wort from 97 degress or so down to 24 which I was very happy with.

I throttled my pump to almost a trickle so the wort was moving very slow through the plate chiller, but the water hose was running flat out.

The other method is just to cube it, as I like to brew a lager every now and then and even at 24 degrees its just not cool enough.

Good luck with it!

 

[MaltyHops]

Hey all,
... With the water temp though it's only getting it down to 33-38 degrees. After this I've been putting it in the fermentation fridge and cooling to pitching temp overnight then giving a good stirring up before adding my yeast.

Just want to know what others do in this regard? Is there anything wrong with this method or is there a better one?

Newts

This is what I do (cube is chilled in ferment fridge a day or two before brew day), after getting wort down to high 30C's using tap water:

 

[whitegoose]

I have a really similar problem - just yesterday I brewed a lager, ran it through my plate chiller and got it down to about 21 degrees (which I was actually pretty happy with all things considered) but then I had to put the whole fermenter in the fridge for about 6 hours to get it down to 10 degrees. When it came time to pitch I give it a good stir and away we go.

I connected my tap water through to an immersion chiller that was full of ice and ran the outlet to my plate chiller. I got the wort from 97 degress or so down to 24 which I was very happy with.

I throttled my pump to almost a trickle so the wort was moving very slow through the plate chiller, but the water hose was running flat out.

That sounds like a good way to go... now i just need to invest in an immersion chiller!

 

[Newts]

Thanks for the responses guys, exactly what I wanted to know. Looks like the key is to recirc the wort which is a problem with my current setup. I'll have to sort something out.

When you say a pond pump NewtownClown are they like the pumps you use in a water feature that you pick up from Bunnings? If so I think I have one in the shed. Would they have enough pressure to run the water through the plate chiller at a fast enough rate? That is a good idea with the immersion chiller amcqueen. only thing with that is I don't have one.

That's a nice compact setup there MaltyHops. I should put up a pic of my ghetto build at some point.

I'll consider all the ideas above. In the end I just want my wort to be low 20s so I can pitch straight away. Is there any problem with leaving the wort in the ferm fridge overnight before pitching the yeast? I've done 3 batches this way so far is all.

Really need to get some cubes and give no-chill a go. I've always found the cooling side to be the worst part of the brewing process for me.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

I have a really similar problem - just yesterday I brewed a lager, ran it through my plate chiller and got it down to about 21 degrees (which I was actually pretty happy with all things considered) but then I had to put the whole fermenter in the fridge for about 6 hours to get it down to 10 degrees. When it came time to pitch I give it a good stir and away we go.


That sounds like a good way to go... now i just need to invest in an immersion chiller!

21 is very good for this time of year. Canberra is pretty good with our mountain water but today following this heat wave best I could do was 25 at any speed.

That's why I don't lagers in summer if I can avoid it

General tip to OP: you are running the water on opposite ins and outs to the beer right?

 

[Newts]

Yeah, I am running it in the opposite direction to the wort. Seems the tap water is just too hot. I'll have to have a think about it but I do like the look of Maltyhops setup - basically recirc the wort till it's at the minimum temp the plate chiller will give, then run cold water through for the final run whilst still recircing the wort. Might even go to the extent of recircing the cool water as well until I hit pitching temp. Will have to wait for next weekend now to work on it!

Still have that question though, what is the harm in cooling the wort in your ferm fridge if it's still too warm to pitch? Is it more susceptible to infection? I figured it's similar to no chill but only for a short period so it shouldn't do any harm?

 

[MaltyHops]

Still have that question though, what is the harm in cooling the wort in your ferm fridge if it's still too warm to pitch? Is it more susceptible to infection? I figured it's similar to no chill but only for a short period so it shouldn't do any harm?

With a normal fridge it will take a few hours to cool from high 30C's to yeast pitching temps (mid-20C's & lower) and then a few more hours to get down to desired ferment temps. While the risk might (and assuming your cleaning/sanitising regime is up to scratch), the air that gets into your fermenter can potentially contain mould spores which could take hold during the wort cooling from the high 30C's stage. You could probably get away with it most of the time but it does create the risk - either chill quickly to pitching temps or use nochill, which keeps things hot enough for long enough.

Yeah, I am running it in the opposite direction to the wort. Seems the tap water is just too hot. I'll have to have a think about it but I do like the look of Maltyhops setup - basically recirc the wort till it's at the minimum temp the plate chiller will give, then run cold water through for the final run whilst still recircing the wort. Might even go to the extent of recircing the cool water as well until I hit pitching temp. Will have to wait for next weekend now to work on it!

I suspect I can do even better with my system as I have been using the chilled water while still recirculating back into the kettle so I'm also chilling down the heat of the kettle. I think If I was actually draining the wort to a fermenter when using the chilled water, it would be even quicker to cool down.

Maybe even use two cubes of chilled water to cool from 80C to ~23C - assuming a very efficient heat exchange, might be able to achieve:
20L@80C (wort) + 20L@5C = 1600 + 100 = 1700 units/40L = 42.5C
[email protected] (wort) + 20L@5C = 850 + 100 = 950 units/40L = 23.75C

Probably would have to drain the first pass into a cube or fermenter and pour back into my kettle after giving the kettle a clean of the boil remains and starsan rinse.

 

[Newts]

Thanks Malty, that's what I wanted to know. So there is an increased risk of infection and that's why people don't do it.

Yeah, well I'll have to look at my setup and see what's going to work. The problem is you don't really know how it works until you do it. I like the idea of recircing with tap temperature water down to mid thirties, then doing the second run with something chilled. I can use the ferm fridge the day before to cool a cube of water, I'll use a 30L drum and see how it goes.

Seems like a winning combo to me. The only thing I'm worried about is the flow rate through the chiller - if it's gravity fed is the water going through quick enough to be constantly cooling the wort? I'll have to give it a shot and see what happens anyway, at least I know it can only get colder.

 

[MaltyHops]

Seems like a winning combo to me. The only thing I'm worried about is the flow rate through the chiller - if it's gravity fed is the water going through quick enough to be constantly cooling the wort? I'll have to give it a shot and see what happens anyway, at least I know it can only get colder.

Actually, to make the most of a limited amount of chilled water (like 20L's worth), I let the chilled water drain at a trickle with the wort recirculating at a fairly fast flow to try and load as much heat to the chilled water as possible. I think if I were to try the double-cube, non-recirc method, I would have both wort and chilled water flow going fairly slowly to maximise contact time.

 

[CONNOR BREWARE]

Still have that question though, what is the harm in cooling the wort in your ferm fridge if it's still too warm to pitch? Is it more susceptible to infection? I figured it's similar to no chill but only for a short period so it shouldn't do any harm?

In the case of hot wort I'd say the problem is DMS Newts, or Dimethyl sulfide. Described as a sulfur 'caned corn' taste and smell.
Basically the same reason you want enough volatility in your kettle boil.

 

[TidalPete]

I do something similar to the above when doing lagers (And ales on very hot days) but after bringing the temp down by recirculating the wort through the chiller back to kettle, I run the wort into fermenter whilst recirculating chilled water from an old esky through the chiller.
The water level in the esky is kept to just over the inlet to the pond pump to maintain maximum coldness. Esky water is chilled by using a couple of ice-cream containers of frozen water kept in the freezer for that very purpose. This makes the brewday a little longer but gets the wort down to 15 deg or so which is good.

 

[pk.sax]

I've found that a cube of wort chills down to 25-26 in a decent pool in about an hour, stick it closer to the side where the pool pump recircs the water.

If I remember to, next time, I'll spend 3 bucks and dunk the plate chiller in that while running the wort through the chiller.

 

[Beerbuoy]

Yeah, I am running it in the opposite direction to the wort. Seems the tap water is just too hot. I'll have to have a think about it but I do like the look of Maltyhops setup - basically recirc the wort till it's at the minimum temp the plate chiller will give, then run cold water through for the final run whilst still recircing the wort. Might even go to the extent of recircing the cool water as well until I hit pitching temp. Will have to wait for next weekend now to work on it!

Still have that question though, what is the harm in cooling the wort in your ferm fridge if it's still too warm to pitch? Is it more susceptible to infection? I figured it's similar to no chill but only for a short period so it shouldn't do any harm?

In the case of hot wort I'd say the problem is DMS Newts, or Dimethyl sulfide. Described as a sulfur 'caned corn' taste and smell.
Basically the same reason you want enough volatility in your kettle boil.

DMS won't be a problem if you are cooling to 30-35deg with tap water first.

The only problem is added risk of infection. There are always some unwanted bacteria in your beer/fermenter, the sooner you start fermenting the sooner the good bacteria take over.

Edit : Do you have a bore? I have the same problem with high tap water temps. I find my bore water is much cooler so I run that through an immersion chiller.

 

[Newts]

Nah, no bore here. No source of cool water at a. I'll just have to make my own cool water.

 

[MaltyHops]

I suspect I can do even better with my system as I have been using the chilled water while still recirculating back into the kettle so I'm also chilling down the heat of the kettle. I think If I was actually draining the wort to a fermenter when using the chilled water, it would be even quicker to cool down.

Maybe even use two cubes of chilled water to cool from 80C to ~23C - assuming a very efficient heat exchange, might be able to achieve:
20L@80C (wort) + 20L@5C = 1600 + 100 = 1700 units/40L = 42.5C
[email protected] (wort) + 20L@5C = 850 + 100 = 950 units/40L = 23.75C

Probably would have to drain the first pass into a cube or fermenter and pour back into my kettle after giving the kettle a clean of the boil remains and starsan rinse.

Had a go at this yesterday and things didn't quite go to plan. Starting at around 80C, the wort in the cube from the first pass seemed to be around mid-50C so I wasn't confident this will idea will work. Turns out the cubes of chill water I put in the fridge a couple of days before got partially frozen so wasn't flowing out well, which may be why it wasn't working.

This and the thought of having to clean out the kettle before pouring the partially cooled wort back in, made me bail out and go back to my usual method of using tap water to cool the wort while recirculating between kettle and chiller the to mid-30Cs, then swap to using the chilled water to bring it all down to ~23C before pumping it to fermenter.

I think this two cube idea can still work but I'm thinking the extra messing around increases the potential for infection whereas my goto method keeps everything sealed up until the very end. I think tap water would have to get pretty warm for my method to not work.