Two beers, one boil?

[sponge]

Hi all,

I had a little perusal around the threads but came up empty handed with this one so thought I'd ask the AHB masses. I was just wondering - with a 50L:+ volume boil if there would be any issues with draining off a cube of a standard mild (for example) recipe after a 60min boil, but continue to boil the remaining 30L+ and possibly throw in some steeped choc malt (eg) and boil further for a standard strength porter?

I know I could just dilute one cube or something, but like the idea of adding in different grains and getting a few different styles out of a single brew day? I know there's the obvious disadvantage of not being able to whirlpool - unless there are no major issues with re-boiling brewbrite after whirlpooling for the first cube beer - but if I'm not overly concerned about clarity, and also have the ability to filter, would there be any issues with doing the above?

Being able to do quad batches and getting possibly 4 different beers by adding different steeped spec malts at different boil times would be quite convenient, and having the option to throw different yeasts and hops at each cube would gives even more options.

I was just having a bit of a think about it at work today and curious on any thoughts.

Muchas gracias

 

[mje1980]

I reckon that'd work mate. It'd take a few test batches to test what sort of gravities you'd end up with after the 2nd boil. Some dme or sugar would make it easy too.

 

[mje1980]

Not the same but I recently did a few golden ale double batches. One gets clean yeast like us05, the other gets saison yeast, or lager yeast could work as well.

 

[Hpal]

I tried something similar for the first time the other week, I took two beers with a similar grain bill and hop schedule, tweaked one this way and one the other way so they met in the middle but still to style. I cubed both and added some cube hops to one and fermented as a Helles Lager, and cubed the other and will ferment it as a Kolsch. Yet to see the results but should work out.

 

[JDW81]

I reckon the biggest issue you're likely to run into is a low gravity on the second beer. Presuming your mild is ~3.5% it would take a fair bit of a boiling to get to a standard strength porter. I reckon the best way to solve this is do a steep of your porter spec grains and then add a little DME to the porter boil to get your pre-boil gravity spot on.

JD

 

[Barge]

When I used to do 3V brewing I played around with a method known as Split Wort of Increased Gravity (SWIG). Not sure where the IG part comes from or who came up with it but I'm sure google will tell you.

Essentially, the ratio of gravity points from first running:batch sparge is 60:40. I think I must've worked it so that I got equal volumes from each and then boiled them separately. For example, I planned a 50L batch @ 1.045 and I mashed pale malt and a bit of carapils and ran off into one kettle to give 25L at 1.050 and then added some roasted barley and batch sparged to get 25L at 1.040. I can't remember the exact details but you get the idea. The first runnings made a lager and the 2nd, a stout.

Like I said, you need 2 kettles but it gives a bit of variety and was fairly straightforward. Now that I BIAB it's just easier to brew more often but at the time it suited my needs.

 

[Adr_0]

Why don't you target a normalish gravity, maybe 25-30 IBU or so, and chuck some candi syrup and Belgian yeast in the second? The syrup could be clear with a saison yeast or golden ale yeast, golden, amber or dark with a different Belgian yeast.

 

[adryargument]

I used to no chill 60l into three cubes.
If you only add bittering hops then there's a lot of options for 20min 'cube' hops and seperate yeasts.

 

[sponge]

Yeah I've been cube hopping and adding different yeasts to different cubes for a while, but was just toying with the idea of starting with a simple grain bill for a light lager for example, and adding in spec malts after filling a cube to get even more variation out of a single brew day. I might give it a go anyways and report back on the results.

 

[sponge]

And in regards to getting the gravity up on the 'second' cube, I'd just boil for another hour which would get it back up to a full strength OG. I just wasn't sure if skipping the whirlpool would be the end of the world, or re-boiling finings after a first whirlpool.

 

[Danwood]

I regularly do this for double batches, Sponge.

I start with a very generic mash of pale malt, maybe a bit of Munich or Vienna thrown in.

Then a bit of Magnum for the bittering during the boil, and after that everything else goes into the cube... hops and cool steeped darker malts.

I've done ESB/Smoked Porter, Pale/IPA, ESB/Stout and a few others.

Works well for me.

 

[sponge]

Lurrrvely. I've heard of brewers throwing some steeped specs into cubes without boiling so might be the best way to go about doing it, rather than stuff around with double boils and the like. I think it might have even been Mark (mje) telling me about it? Sounds like I've got a little bit of experimenting do to.

 

[marksy]

I sometimes double batch and just split after mash and do two different boils with different hops, I`ve though about doing different grains too but haven`t gone down that path. You could always do a bulk base mash, and a mini mash for the 1 batch, then mini mash for second batch while boiling 1st batch.

 

[JDW81]

Sponge,

Been doing some research recently and seems that what you're trying to do isn't that uncommon. It's called parti-gyle brewing and means you get two or more different worts from the one mash. It's how Fullers make their ESB and London Pride.

There is a good BN podcast on it, and it goes through how you might do it.

In a nutshell you make your high gravity beer (like an IIPA) with a fairly straight forward malt bill (base malt, dextrine malt, little bit of crystal) and draw off you first runnings for the high gravity beer. You then add your dark grains (either steeped or mash again) and draw off the second runnings for a lower gravity beer (mild of some such).

Once you've got your two worts you then boil and hop as is appropriate for each beer.

I don't know if there is a way to predict the gravity of the second runnings based on your batch sparge volumes, but it wouldn't be too hard to adjust your hopping on the fly for the second beer so they BU:SG ratio is appropriate.

 

[Velu]

I'm not sure sponge is thinking about Parti-gyle brewing, just using the one boil to get two beers. But your bang on about adjusting your hopping for the second beer when you are Parti-gyle brewing. So easy to over-hop and skew your planned BU:SG ratio!

 

[contrarian]

The other way to go would be to brew to the higher gravity and for the lower gravity beer run off a smaller cube, say 15L at 1.060 which you can then water down to 1.045 with 5L into the fermenter. You could cube hop this as well to suit the style.

You could then add the other grains either to the kettle or cube to give you a 20L cube of robust porter.

This means you only need one boil and don't have to worry about the whirlpool/reboil factors but still get 2 very different beers.

 

[sponge]

Yea it's a similar idea to the parti-gyle method (which I've used on a number of occasions) but using a single boil and mash whilst still getting different beers.

I think my best option is to play around with adding steeped spec malts to the cube, but still think I'll try a couple of cubes-worth of running a low gravity wort off after a 60min boil and reduce the remaining wort further with some spec malts for something else again. Plenty of experimenting to keep me occupied with..

 

[super_simian]

True parti- (or party-) gyling is actually a bit more complicated than the way US homebrewers use the term. It involves re-combining boiled worts of differing gravity prior to fermentation.

 

[Blind Dog]

Nice idea and seems like a winner. If I was to steal the idea, I’d steep the spec grains separately then add the ‘juice’ during the boil for at least 10 minutes to reduce any infection risk. Timing of the addition would depend on whether I wanted flavour and colour or just colour.

From what I’ve read, an extended boil can lead to the breakdown of the hot break into smaller pieces making it harder to remove, but I’ve no idea how long the boil would need to be for that to happen, only that I haven’t had that issue on the rare occasions I’ve boiled the wort for 2 hours.

 

[sponge]

I'd only be looking to do another 30-60min boil on top of the first 45-60min boil so wouldn't be boiling for any ridiculous amount of time.

There's probably a small risk having the unboiled wort thrown into the cube (and I guess I could just do it on the side with the gas burner and small pot) but it would only be a small percentage of unboiled wort going into the near-boiling cube. I'll play around with it and store cubes for different lengths of time and see how they hold up.