True Weizen vs Belgian yeasts for German phenolics

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Hey LRG,

somewhat off topic...
How did your M21 batch end up?

Brilliant. It's the yeast I was looking for - for a Saison.

I've been struggling with dry Saison yeasts (Belle Saison and the MJ equiv) to get any tart or funk or farmhouse sort of flavours. Ran the things at 28 degrees - nada. Like an average tasting one dimensional Belgian (though at least the Danstar Belle Saison was good enough to give a mild amount of phenols).

Run M21 at 21 degrees, and I got a tart, interesting slightly funky beer, that tastes a little like a Belgian Kristall and a bit like a mildly bretty beer without the blue cheese being massive.

A bit like T58, if you find its sweet spot, it can really deliver on the day. The only problem is that I wanted an ambient temp yeast to give me what I need for a quick keg filler (my fermenting fridge only has room for one fermenter), and I got more Saison from the Belgian than the dry Saison yeasts gave me.

 

[n87]

Brilliant. It's the yeast I was looking for - for a Saison.

I've been struggling with dry Saison yeasts (Belle Saison and the MJ equiv) to get any tart or funk or farmhouse sort of flavours. Ran the things at 28 degrees - nada. Like an average tasting one dimensional Belgian (though at least the Danstar Belle Saison was good enough to give a mild amount of phenols).

Run M21 at 21 degrees, and I got a tart, interesting slightly funky beer, that tastes a little like a Belgian Kristall and a bit like a mildly bretty beer without the blue cheese being massive.

A bit like T58, if you find its sweet spot, it can really deliver on the day. The only problem is that I wanted an ambient temp yeast to give me what I need for a quick keg filler (my fermenting fridge only has room for one fermenter), and I got more Saison from the Belgian than the dry Saison yeasts gave me.

Thanks, I guess that means not that crash hot for a hefe or wit?

regarding Belle Saison, me and co-brewer did a split batch, each fermenting 25L with Belle.
He did it at ~18 and got much more fruit than mine, which ended up a sort of spicy clean at ~22.
I havent used it again yet for a saison (the Biere de Garde is lagering, and is tasting great), but if i did, i would do it at a lower temp.
My current saison, done with WLP566, is beginning to taste like a peach/citrus sherbet after nearly a month in the keg (keep in mind i had a smoked doublebock beforehand).
When it was first keged, there was a little spice, but not much in the fruit dept. Im guessing there is something funky in there slowly chewing away... I might have to check one of the bottles to make sure they dont blow up

 

[hirschb]

If you want tart, you need to use lacto, pedio, or particular brett strains (that sometimes give off acid in the right conditions). If you want funk or farmhouse, you need to use brett. The only Sacch that I've tried with some decent farmhouse character is TYB Wallonian farmhouse. Weird yeast, but it can have nice results depending on various factors. Belle Saison isn't a bad saison yeast, but it has far less character than most saison strains.

I've been struggling with dry Saison yeasts (Belle Saison and the MJ equiv) to get any tart or funk or farmhouse sort of flavours. Ran the things at 28 degrees - nada. Like an average tasting one dimensional Belgian (though at least the Danstar Belle Saison was good enough to give a mild amount of phenols).