The right Water Chemistry Calc?

[Dan Pratt]

Hi,

I have reached the stage of my brewing that water chemistry is an area I would like to improve. I have my current water profile ( Central Coast 2012/12 ) and target water profiles for pale ale, wheat beers, light through to dark, bitter or malty and balanced profiles etc etc.

What I can not seem to find online is the right software to actually calculate the additions I need to make. All the software I have accessed still require's a manual input of a quantity in grams of which ever mineral to achieve the required target profile.

In an ideal world I should be able to enter my profile, target, malt bill and press a calc button to show me what i need to add to the water to get to my target. Right now after much plugging away on speadsheet calcs I seem to be still unsure of how much to add to get teh target balanced right.

Can someone help?

 

[timmi9191]

http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

 

[Pickaxe]

Ez water calculator. Awesome spreadsheet.

Brun's water, great page and resources.

Beersmith 2 also has water inputs etc, but I found ez water calculator easy to start with.
Haven't setup my beersmith yet, but might, might not. Ez water calc is perfect for my needs right now.

 

[Pickaxe]

Ez water calculator. Awesome spreadsheet.

Brun's water, great page and resources.

Beersmith 2 also has water inputs etc, but I found ez water calculator easy to start with.
Haven't setup my beersmith yet, but might, might not. Ez water calc is perfect for my needs right now.

 

[Pickaxe]

Sorry bout double post. Phone...

Check out since threads in water category too, good info from those more experienced.

 

[Dan Pratt]

See I have tried those sites, but they require a manual input of what to add and I'm don't quite understand it enough to get the right numbers into balance the target profile from the water I have. It seems daunting to be honest and for the first time I need direct help with this.

 

[Dan2]

Try plugging in your figures (source water, grist) then playing with the salt additions section and see how that affects the overall report.

May take a little messing around, but it's quicker than brewing and measuring (and much cheaper)

 

[Dan Pratt]

I have done some more 'learning' and have created the following with the available software.

C/Coast Water (ppm) Target - Pale Ale ( Very Hopped Beer ) 21lt batch

Calcium - 13.7 140
Magnesium - 3.5 18
Sodium - 34.3 25
Sulphate - 34.8 300
Chloride - 33.5 55
Total Hardness - 49 424
Alkalinity - 40 91
pH - 7.7 5.4

With these additions of minerals I would achieve a much better water quality for the beer.

Gypsom - 10.8g
Epsom Salt - 2.7g
Chalk - 1.4g
Mag Chloride - 1.4g

Should get me versus Target Pale Ale profile.

Calcium - 127 140
Magnesium - 19 18
Sodium - 34 25
Sulphate - 297 300
Chloride - 51 55
Total Hardness - 396 424
Alkalinity - 91 91
pH - 5.6 (malt bill) 5.4

:unsure:

 

[Black n Tan]

Pratty, I am far from an expert but believe you should only concentrate on Ca for pale beers, because this has the biggest effect on mash pH. Use CaCl2 for malt focused pale beers and CaSO4 for hoppy pale beers. Forget the other stuff.

 

[manticle]

Where are you getting your desired water profiles from?

 

[Black n Tan]

Where are you getting your desired water profiles from?

Looks like the pale ale water profile in Brun.

 

[BeerNess]

Beersmith 2 does what you want. Set up your profile and target profiles and assign them to your recipes and it will just tell you what to add. I still prefer to use the ezwater spreadsheet personally, beersmith is pretty and flashy and stuff but especially with water volumes and abv there seem to be some fundamental calculation problems behind the scenes. I've tuned it very precisely with my equipment, ingredients and processes but still come out wrong so I've developed a lack of faith with it's information. BIABacus and ezwater spreadsheets work perfectly.

 

[Dan Pratt]

BeerNess - I tried out the Beersmith and it does what I need for a starting point, it calculates how much to add to make target profile.

Manticle - Black n Tan is correct, the profiles i have accessed from the Brun' spreadsheet, should I be using something else?

 

[manticle]

I haven't used them but I trust the brun water site based on the water knowledge page, his own experiments and his contribution to the new water book.

I was surprised anyone would recommend calcium carbonate in a pale beer but I'm guessing that is you trying to raise the pH. Calcium carbonate/chalk is fairly ineffective at raising pH and is not particularly tasty in pale beers. You are lowering pH with your calcium and (to a lesser degree) magnesium, then trying to raise it again with the chalk.

Estimated mash pH is right on the high side. pH is a logarithmic scale so pH 5 is ten times more acidic than pH 6 and 100 times more acidic than pH 7 so those small looking numbers can have a real difference. I believe alpha amylase favours a lower pH than beta. pH suggested there will also be room temperature/20 deg/cooled sample - mash temp will have a difference of roughly 0.3 points lower so 5.6 at mash temp would be definitely too high if you are looking for fermentability.

Have a look at discussion on using hydroxides as a way of raising pH (or forget about it altogether and see what you get).
Malt will provide all the magnesium the yeast needs and more so there is never really a need for epsom in my opinion - unless your wort is high in non-malt/adjunct.

I think what you are asking for is not realistic because final flavour is dependent on recipe, your tastes etc. If something says 'add this, this and this' to get these numbers I reckon it could lead you astray. Add as little as possible to get mash pH right and calcium right, then add some flavour salts for hop sparkle and malt (your sulphate levels are high but that should brighten the hop profile and give a bitter edge).

 

[Dan Pratt]

Thanks Manticle thats good info. I will do a dry run ( no malt ) with my mineral additions and see what my pH is after the additions of the minerals to the current water.

From what i have been reading, the malt bill will also affect the pH levels, only small effects from base malts but the darker the malt the more acidic.

Is there somewhere with a malt = acid rating?

 

[BeerNess]

Ez water spreadsheet does the malt/pH stuff quite well, plug in the grain bill, fields for acidulated malt and chemical additions, and they all calculate back into the overall pH. Really worth playing with.

 

[manticle]

Water pH is of fairly negligible importance so I wouldn't worry about a dry run. Mash pH matters. Water residual alkalinity and mineral content matters in conjunction with malt bill. Water pH doesn't really matter (although the minerals affecting water pH may matter).

Very basically malt adds minerals and buffers pH (makes it resistant to change)and is generally acidic (low pH). Dark grains are more acidic and as a rule of thumb: the darker, the more effect on lowering pH.

Special B is, as I understand, the most acidic (rather than roast etc).

I have an article on water chem that I can link you to if it helps but the brun water knowledge page is also very comprehensive and well worth reading over a couple of times, especially if you are using his profiles.

The new water book by Palmer and Kaminski has some data on what effects various malts have on pH.

Braukaiser website may also as at least some of the data comes from experiments by Kai Troester from Braukaiser.