sparge water or boil additions

[arctic78]

Just got a couple of quick question About salt additions and if you could let me know if this water profile looks ok for an IPA or if it needs fixing.

In Braukaiser water sheet it splits the additions between mash and Sparge. I am adding Gypsum ( calcium sulfate ) 8g and a very small amount of calcium chloride ( CaC12 -2H2O ) .2g So i am using the gypsum to lower the pH and add some sulfate for flavor and the calcium chloride just to bring up the chloride a little. My question is, Is the sparge water addition of gypsum needed or should i just add it to the boil and the calcium chloride all to the mash.
The reason i ask about adding the gypsum to the boil is that i have read there is no need to add salts to the spage water. ??

This is what i have come up with from using Hobart water to start with.


ppm Ca


ppm Mg

ppm Na

ppm SO4

ppm Cl

ppm HCO3

alkalinity as ppm CaCO3

residual alkalinity as ppm CaCO3

















70

2

4

147

11

0

-57

-109


Any advise appreciated .

 

[manticle]

I see mash additions as generally about mash pH and sparge or boil additions as flavour salts. However both sparge and boil pH are important too.

Generally if mash pH is good and your sparge water is not alkaline, you should find boil (and beer) pH will be taken care of.

However you will do no harm adding appropriate salts to sparge if you calculate the right amount.

Personally I add calcium and acid if needed to target mash pH, lightly acidify sparge water and add a bit of extra calcium salt to the boil.

 

[dblunn]

Manticle is spot on, but just to reiterate that salt additions will not affect sparge pH only flavour (bitterness perception etc). To lower sparge pH to avoid tannin extraction you have to use acid.
Dave

 

[arctic78]

It was my understanding from what i was reading that that was the case Just wanted to be sure i was understanding it correctly. Adjust mash for pH and any flavour additions into the boil then acid, Lactic i am using, To lower the sparge pH and get rid of alkalinity.

So the way Braukaiser has split it into mash and sparge should i add just the gypsum portion as stated on the sheet to the mash making sure the pH is correct and then the rest that is down as a sparge addition add into the boil or is this calculated differently?

My sparge water only requires .3ml of lactic acid to get rid of the alkalinity and lower the pH so i was thinking a syringe would be useful for measuring this.

Thanks for the clarification.

Just noticed my my numbers for the water came out all messed up :huh:

 

[manticle]

You're well on the way arctic. It's as simple as that.

 

[arctic78]

Cheers . thanks for all the tips/advice

 

[manticle]

Manticle is spot on, but just to reiterate that salt additions will not affect sparge pH only flavour (bitterness perception etc). To lower sparge pH to avoid tannin extraction you have to use acid.
Dave

Unless I've got something very arse about (which does happen from time to time so forgive me), calcium additions will affect pH of water: just not by a huge amount and thus acid is a better option.

 

[dblunn]

Hi Manticle, what I meant was that Ca in sparge water will not have a great influence since by itself it does not change the pH, rather it affects pH via chemical reactions in the mash. In the sparge (ie post mash) I don't think Ca will have a major influence (this is where my chemistry knowledge gets a bit flaky). So if it did have a significant affect on pH then it may be better to add flavour salts directly to the boil and only add the acid to the sparge. Most of the stuff I have read is fairly vague on this point. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can clarify this point.
Regards, Dave

 

[MHB]

Calcium appears to do lots of things in brewing
In the mash it is an important enzyme cofactor (as are some other salts), reasonably high levels of Ca help protest Alpha Amylase from heat break down...
In the sparge it isn't all that important as by then all the major enzyme actions are over, however pH is very important as it and getting the temperature right helps to stop tannin extraction so acidifying the sparge is very beneficial.
In the kettle Ca contributes to the falling pH as you boil, to Protein coagulation and flocculation and to the reduction of Oxalates that can contribute to beer stone formation and to gushing in packaged beer.
For mine, Ca in the mash, more in the later half of the boil, Acid in the sparge water. If you are doing BIAB, have a Braumeister or other all in system treat all the water at the start.

Remember that it isn't the Ca that affects the flavour as much as the Anion attached to it (Cl SO4 Phosphate lactate...) that will have the most influence on flavour.
In pale beer you will have a great deal of difficulty in getting the mash <5.6pH without exceeding acceptable anion concentrations, which is why German maltsters developed Acid Malt (1% of grist lowers the pH by 0.1pH) and most other brewers use acid to get into the ideal mashing range.

 

[arctic78]

Thanks MHB. I am using acid malt to lower the pH of the mash , 80g. I mainly added the gypsum to raise the calcium as it was quite low as also was the sulfate. it did help lower the pH slightly as well.
From what i have found and read i think, Stress think, that i have my water ok for an IPA but i guess i will find out for sure when i brew it and actually get to put this into practice then learn from that and hopefully improve from there.

Thanks

 

[hopsock]

Just got a couple of quick question About salt additions and if you could let me know if this water profile looks ok for an IPA or if it needs fixing.

In Braukaiser water sheet it splits the additions between mash and Sparge. I am adding Gypsum ( calcium sulfate ) 8g and a very small amount of calcium chloride ( CaC12 -2H2O ) .2g So i am using the gypsum to lower the pH and add some sulfate for flavor and the calcium chloride just to bring up the chloride a little. My question is, Is the sparge water addition of gypsum needed or should i just add it to the boil and the calcium chloride all to the mash.
The reason i ask about adding the gypsum to the boil is that i have read there is no need to add salts to the spage water. ??

This is what i have come up with from using Hobart water to start with.

ppm Ca ppm Mg ppm Na ppm SO4 ppm Cl ppm HCO3 alkalinity as ppm CaCO3 residual alkalinity as ppm CaCO3 70 2 4 147 11 0 -57
-109

Any advise appreciated .

h h

 

[MHB]

Artic - Acid Malt will lower the pH by 0.1pH / 1% of Acid Malt in the grist, so to go from say 5.8 to 5.5 you would need 3% of grist. In a 4.5kg grist that would be 135g (4.5*.03 = 135)
Acid Malt is just pilsner malt with a lacto culture sprayed onto it, then standardised, so just substitute for normal base malt to achieve whatever pH adjustment you need.

Hopsock - h h - NFI what that is supposed to mean?

Mark

 

[kaiserben]

Can you use your phosphoric no-rinse solution to acidify sparge water?

I was trying to figure that out and found one LHBS was selling both the 80% Phosphoric as a no-rinse sanitiser and also a 100% Phosphoric as an acid adjuster.

So therefore I assume the 80% probably should only be used for sanitising (because it contains 20% of other stuff to make bubbles), and that the 100% stuff is just for acidification (because it doesn't make bubbles). Is this correct? Or could I was either for both purposes?

 

[manticle]

The stuff I get from grain and grape is 88% food grade phosphoric. Lactic is similar, although I can't remember the exact percentage.

If it is sold as food grade acid, it should be fine but if it is sold as phosphoric based sanitiser, it may contain surfactants and other ingredients. While you are using very small amounts and any no-rinse sanitiser should be OK to ingest in such amounts, I'd just go for the stuff designed to do the job you are asking.

 

[kaiserben]

Just did a quick bit of research.

The 2 phosphoric products are:

Pure Phosphoric Acid (96% Pure)
Which is 96% phosphoric acid and 4% filtered water
And can be used "as a non-foaming non-rinse sanitiser when diluted with water to a concentration of 1ml/2Litres. Phosphoric acid is excellent at passifying stainless. Phosphoric acid is also great for adjusting PH of sparge water. Phosphoric acid can be completely metabolised by yeast and will act as a yeast nutrient if it ends up on your fermenter."

and

Phosphoric Acid Blend Sanitiser
Which is 50% phosphoric, 15% dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid (other 35% not listed)
and is used at concentration of 1.5ml/L.

There's also a lactic acid product which is the 88% one.

 

[kaiserben]

The blend is what I've been using for ages as a no-rinse sanitiser.

I've just bought some of the pure stuff, primarily for sparge acidification, but, considering the product description, I might as well start using that as my no-rinse too seeing as it's $2 per 300ml bottle cheaper AND it's recommended dilution means it'll last 50% longer.