First time poster. I went to the brew shop in the hope of coming back with something other then s23 as I haven't had great success with it however the bloke talked me into in, im using it for lager I want a hoppy little european lager but have yet to acheive this. Im using hallertau hops once again as recomended but it doesn't seem to have much body to me what would you recommend? So s23 should I do a starter and how do I do this ? The bloke in the shop told me to do it at 21 degress for 15 minutes, he also told me to pitch the yeast at 21 but I thought you should pitch saf at 15 degrees ? What is the optimal temperature for saflager. The last lager I fermented using s23 took ages and lacks..... well something I fermented it at 11 degrees, dropped it to 4 degrees for half a week once I had reached the fg. Im using coopers lager extract and be1 because I want to get an ok cheap as lager down pat before I experiment with dark ales and pilsiners and bock. Any advice would be awesome as im a newbie only 3rd brew in