Rims, Herms, Single Step?

[seravitae]

i dont have a herms/rims setup yet. in fact i dont have any setup for beer yet.. however i'm just fiddling with MS visio at the moment making a plant diagram, for my "dream" setup. whether it will become reality is a different matter, but i will post it here when i am done drawing it.

 

[jeddog]

love to see it...sera


I'm in the process of making something like this...



mmmmmmmmmmm nice

just can't get my head around the HERMS bit

 

[kirem]

i dont have a herms/rims setup yet. in fact i dont have any setup for beer yet.. however i'm just fiddling with MS visio at the moment making a plant diagram, for my "dream" setup. whether it will become reality is a different matter, but i will post it here when i am done drawing it.

Just like brewing from scratch (AG) building a HERMS is a slippery slope, it is very addictive and there always something that could be improved.

I love it, it is release for me, especially if I have an empty house and sabbath up LOUD

 

[seravitae]

Okay first the disclaimers:

First time using visio/diagrams. Probably incorrect symbols used. System is not optimal, especially the forest of valves! I love constructive critisism. If you can make it better, share it around! Also, this is a pipedream. It is an extreme layout of what I would consider to be totally awesome, and may, or may not ever exist, depending on funding, reality, physicality, etc.



Ok the plant diagram:

Finally, here's some notes on this plan of awesomeness.

Using a chest freezer, sillicone seal two sheets of plastic and fill with polystyrene sheeting for insulation and weatherproofing. This is used to split a normal chest freezer into two isolated chambers. Using my fridge mechanic friend, we degas the compressor, and regas the entire refrigeration loop only in make it a closed loop around the chiller distributor loop. This is just an insulated container. It is used as a buffer box. 3 DC pumps connected to the heat exchangers in the chiller distributor loop. DC is important as you can PWM dc to change the flow rate (and thus the cooling) to each radiator in each isolated tank, meaning you can chill the kegs for drinking (5 degrees celcius?) and for fermentation (20-25 deg?). This will keep the power low. Also, using thermocouples inside the water loops, it is quite easy to regulate the temperature by adjusting the PWM of the DC motors. This is analagous to replacing the refrigeration compressor with a "DC inverter-style compressor". You could do that too, but it's possible that a DC inverter compressor costs many many hundreds of dollars whereas this pump system could probably be done with cheap fishtank pumps. I have not done any checks against how big the radiator needs to be for the cooling requirements.

Using a series of either three-way valves (not optimised, huge amount of tubing/routing, a bitch to clean, i know) or (not shown but considering) quick disconnect fittings, allow a routing system for a HERMS system consisting of 2.4kW (max aussie power on std breaker) heating element inside a small container. The diagram doesnt totally show it but i did take gravity into account. The march pump is right at the bottom of the system so that it can route stuff from the lowest-to-highest arrangement and everything inbetween. The pump can do herms heating, wort chilling for addition to fermentor, wort pre-chilling for hops infusion, and a hops infusor bypasser if you dont want to use it. (will probably juts make this a seperate module and add quick disconnects?)

I have not shown a kettle. This is because in this model i tailored the setup to my own needs. Due to a low (but steady) brewing frequency, I would use the primary fermentor tank as a temporary store for the wort while i removed the grain and crap from the mash tun, then replace it cleaned and repump the wort back into the mash tun, for use in 'kettle-mode' for mashing out and hopping if necessary.

I have also not added bottom drains for cleaning. I would like to optimise this 'pipe dream' (no pun intended..well okay maybe a little ) first.



I also admit i have a fetish to building crazy hardware configs, (in and out of the subjects of home brewing), so yes, this is extreme, but i like toys. big fancy ones.

 

[brettj]

I really don't see the need for HERMS/RIMS systems. Modern day malts are so well modified that generally, and I stress generally, anything other than a single step infusion mash is pretty much a waste of time. If you use malts such as Weyermann Undermodified Pils or something like Powells Pils - which they will tell you is slightly undermodified - then a step mash is necessary, otherwise you'll be wasting time. Breweries don't use step temp mashes because it's too hard to raise large mashes to the next step, it's because they don't have to. Pilsn breweries employ decoction mashes because they use under-modified malts and their mashes are massive.
I'm sure that you'll see small improvements in effeciency if you use multi-step mashing but from my experience it is the difference in 2 gravity points, if that.

 

[Screwtop]

how about posting some pics of ya HERMS/RIMS for all to see..

Vessels from left - HLT (Hot Liquor Tank) for heating brewing water, MLT (Mash/Lauter Tun) for mashing and lautering :duh:, HERMS HE (Heat Exchanger) wort from the MLT is recirculated through this to both maintain temp for mash rests and to ramp up to the next rest temp (step mash), Kettle (for boiling the wort, to separate protien material, extract hop bitterness and form melanoidins etc in the beer). Pump and valves are below as is the burner stand, the kettle sits on the burner stand on the floor, wort is gravity fed to the kettle while sparge water is pumped to the MLT from the HLT during continuous sparging.

...so the kettle is for after you are done mashing, you seperate the liquid portion and 'mash out' ie bring up to boiling temp? What's wrong with mashing out in the herms loop with the grain bits still in there?

sera Mash Out refers to the practice of raising the mash to around 76C to enable more efficient rinsing of the sweet wort from the grains, due to lower viscosity at this higher temp (higher than mash temp) and also to stop unwanted further enzymatic activity occuring in the mash, due to denaturing of enzymes at this higher temp.

Hope this helps,

Screwy

 

[seravitae]

brett, i weclome your opinion, and as stated before, this is just a dream. a system like that would certainly hurt financially! I'm not sure if i'd want to spend money on all that... on that note, one thing possibly that herms might benefit from over single step is recirculation of the mash, giving a homogenous temperature, and a fairly constant temperature. I don't think i've yet to see an esky setup doing either of these?

herms i guess also has the benefit of isolated hop infusions like i posted too.

screwtop - Oh, ok. I think what i meant was when some brewers raise the temperature to kill off the enzymes. I thougth this was called a mash-out, but yeah, didnt think about the viscoscity/rising bit. cheers for enlightenment

 

[Doogiechap]

Looks like you are in for some fun times ahead Sera
A couple of points:
The lack of Kettle. A good rolling boil is necessary for many reasons. This link does a pretty good job of explaining why.
The complexity if the initial system. Now this one is a 'do as I say not as I do' I did my first AG with my HERMS setup and (in good ol hindsight) this made the process overly complicated and gave me more to worry about. This gave me less chance to absorb the fundamental concepts involved in simple single infusion mashing. Just a thought.
You can still go down the path of purchasing a lot of your key bits of infrastructure but perhaps do a few 'simple AG batches' first which in turn will improve your final design anyway
Good luck with the obsession !
Cheers
Doug

 

[TidalPete]

View attachment 24960

Can anyone remember this great brewframe? The frame was made out of discarded bed frames & it was a WA brewer's setup. Maybe Ash_in_Perth?

Here is the link to my HERMES ---- Linky

TP

 

[Millet Man]

i dont have a herms/rims setup yet. in fact i dont have any setup for beer yet..

Sera,

I reckon it might be a good idea to make a few batches of AG beer first using a very basic setup as Thirsty Boy has descibed (check out how-to-brew online also) so that you can see what all the steps are and why they are done - mashing, lautering/sparging, boiling, chilling, fermenting etc... then it will be easier for you to design a system that will automate those parts of the process that you feel need it.

I'm a commercial brewer but my home brewery is very basic and manual but works well - esky, SS pots, plastic lauter tun, electric urns, no pumps, hand held immersion element, plastic hosing - I can do mash regimes with 6 temperature rests up and down including decoctions and infusions and direct heating. Makes good beer too.

Oh and commercial brewers don't use a herms because a 4,000 litre mash tun only loses maybe 0.2 degrees of temp over 60 minutes (in my experience), steam jackets and boiling water infusions are also good for raising temp quickly.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[seravitae]

hey doogiechap, cheers for the comments.

thankyou for the link, that did explain it a bit more. I was just curious though, the article's main points seem to suggest that a rolling boil is good because it causes mixing, leading to homogenous heating. In my theoretical model I was going to use the herms setup, which would be passing through the march pump, leading to probably more homogenous mixing of the wort than a rolling boil could produce. The other reason for avoiding a standalone kettle was that I wanted to avoid a heating element in direct contact with the wort. I could heat the mash tun (in kettle mode) by 'inverting' the loop, that is, using a valve to pump the HERMS water through a copper loop in the boiler, which i guess would act as a heating element.

I guess i understand why a kettle is used, but im not sure why it needs to be physically (& functionally) seperate from the mash tun, is all, *except* for the fact of seperating the spent grain from the liquid....

andrew: Yeah, if i ever go ahead with a setup like this, I will make modifications such that i can upgrade a single-step barebones system to a fully fledged system over time. The priority would be the dual-fridge unit, as i can't avoid kegging and fermenting fridge. I can avoid herms also, yeah, i gathered on a large scale things like temperatures are easier to handle as on small scale they are more sensetive. i should say as well that in a former life i was introduced to the art of legit home distilling in NZ, and have experience with doing AG's, as i made my own AG burbons and such. so i dig each individual process, you guys do things a little bit in more detail and the terminology and technology is a bit different, i think most of my issues are less about the concept and more about translation heh.

I guess in a way I already made beer, i just concentrated it before drinking! I do understand though that the processes are a little bit different, which is why im asking a lot of questions rather than buying stuff or going off on my own..

you guys rock so much.

 

[Daniel.lear]

Sera, no offence, im here to help but are you an enginneer or worse( h34r: ) a scientist!!

I work with plenty of both in my field of employment and if there is one thing they are brilliant at, it is reinventing the wheel. learn the fundamentals first, why things are done the way they are. I for one am guilty of this and learnt the hard way. as have many many more before me. However, In saying that, i didnt listen to them either.

Go for a simple process to start with and learn the basics. I use a 'traditional' gravity fed three tier system, but if space and, by the sounds of things number of 'vessles' are your worry, give BIAB a go.

Try not to get too wrapped around the axels with more 'advanced' brewing methods. all things in good time.

v/r

Leary

 

[kirem]

I really don't see the need for HERMS/RIMS systems. Modern day malts are so well modified that generally, and I stress generally, anything other than a single step infusion mash is pretty much a waste of time. If you use malts such as Weyermann Undermodified Pils or something like Powells Pils - which they will tell you is slightly undermodified - then a step mash is necessary, otherwise you'll be wasting time. Breweries don't use step temp mashes because it's too hard to raise large mashes to the next step, it's because they don't have to. Pilsn breweries employ decoction mashes because they use under-modified malts and their mashes are massive.
I'm sure that you'll see small improvements in effeciency if you use multi-step mashing but from my experience it is the difference in 2 gravity points, if that.

are malts made to brewery standards because they have become lazy and it is all about cost cutting and efficiency, quality is second?

I think there is a lot more to be gained from experimenting with different mash temperatures than what the general belief is.

Yes an acceptable beer can be made with a single step but what about pushing the boundaries.

 

[seravitae]

Leary, actually i have a BSc(Medicinal chemistry) and doing honours in it now :lol: how'd you rat me out <_<

and also wise advice. i am known for going in over my head so i am going to be very cautious and slow on this project. I still want (and will) make a keg/fermentor fridge as this isnt really a brewing concept per se, and just somewhere to store my beer! believe it or not, the first thing i am going to brew is a few kit beers with it.

AG is still miles away, but a man can still plan and dream, right? also doing this plan is obviously showing (and thus filling) holes in my knowledge. research has shown that merely imagining a concept or a skill in action, leads to aquisition of that skill or action, regardless of whether physical input was provided or not... simulations to the human mind arent really simulations at all, they are merely real life practice under an alternate set of perceptions. To that end,this chat regardless of whether i ever end up at the goal or not, has taught me alot. and that i am grateful for!

 

[raven19]

you guys rock so much.

+1 Some of these brewers setups are awesome indeed!

So much brew p0rn! :icon_drool2:

 

[tangent]

i still maintain that a heated mash like Zwickels, DrGonzo's or my humble setup is way more controllable than infusion step mashing, sorry Jayse.

 

[newguy]

i still maintain that a heated mash like Zwickels, DrGonzo's or my humble setup is way more controllable than infusion step mashing, sorry Jayse.

+1

I created my HERMS not because I wanted to do step mashes, but because I wanted controllability, repeatability, and 'set and forget' convenience. Compared to the flurry of activity that used to happen when I mashed in an esky, brewdays with the HERMS are positively serene.



This is my HERMS. The vessel on the left is my mash tun. The vessel on the right is my hot liquor tank. It is mounted with a heating element and I use it to preheat my strike and sparge water. The small vessel in the middle is my heat exchanger. It contains roughly 8m of 3/8" ID copper tubing and a heating element. The pump is in the foreground and the control unit (homemade) is the silver box mounted above and behind everything. You can see my kettle under the stand on the left.



This is a closeup of the HE. The tube in the foreground is a thermowell containing a temp sensor. You can see the element which I had to bend so that it stays below the waterline. The hook shaped piece of wire sticking out of the lid is a stirrer. I also have a stirrer attached to the lid of the HLT. The motor on the HE's stirrer burned out and to be honest, the system's response is actually better without it.



This is the control unit that I built. It's laid out to be the same as the layout on my bench. There are two temperatures in the mash tun and HLT - the upper is the setpoint, and the lower is the actual temperature in the vessel. The bar graph with a number above it is the power level being delivered to the HE's element (0 off, 63 full power).

 

[technocat]

This is a pic of a brew setup which I am in the proccess of building

View attachment 25000


As you can see a HERMS could be incorparated in the HLT or a separate vessel such as a modified corny keg could be attached. What I like about the HERMS is that it give you better control of what is going on in the mash tun. This setup also uses a number of ball valves which I would replace with solenoid valves to ultimately give more automation via electronic control. The question of temperature overshoot in a HERMS vessel is one that needs to be ironed out probably with familiarisation of the gear.

 

[Justin]

View attachment 24960

Can anyone remember this great brewframe? The frame was made out of discarded bed frames & it was a WA brewer's setup. Maybe Ash_in_Perth?

TP

He he, that system looks strangely familiar LOL B). By the way, its down in Tas not WA

It's funny when you are randomly reading through a thread and then you see your own brewery pop up. Anyway, there is more info on it on the Brews and View forum here if anyone wanted to look more closely at it and the latest additions: http://hbd.org/discus/messages/366/33903.html?1187742085

It has some new toys added to it, which I guess give it some relevance to this thread now. I added an external heat exchanger (the only way to do it in my opinion, makes temp control much easier to manage and quicker to respond). I also added a control panel for easy control of the pump, HLT power, temp controllers, hand held element and pump. Works great.

I wired it all to run off either a pair of seperate 240V/10Amp lines to give me full power and simultaneous two 2400W elements if I need it (handheld, HLT or heat exchange), or I can still have full functionallity off a single 240V/10Amp line (I can only run one 2400W element, well actually it's 2200W and leaves me some buffer for the pump and controllers etc but still allow temp control via the controllers). I also wired a rotary switch that allows me to cycle through any of my elements such as my 2nd HLT element, 2400W handheld element or heat exchanger element without ever accidentally turning two on at once and blowing the circuit). Works great, but dont ask me to repeat the wiring for the system because I can't remember now :huh:.

Regarding the HERMS, it's fun, that's about it. Not needed at all and certainly adds complexity to the brew day but I had the gear and it was a fun project. I also wanted a bigger MT than my 19L esky, the new SS tun didn't hold the heat as well so I added the herms just to help deal with the temp loss (I insulated the new tun as well). I dont step mash, only use it to maintain the temp and then I use it to mash out as well. It is super nice to have temp control on the vessels though so I can just let them go and they look after themselves eg. HLT for early starts on a time switch. But seriously, my 19L esky filled to the brim held the temp for an hour flawlessly. Eskys only loose temp if there is too much air space in them and they are too big for the job at hand.

Have fun whichever way you do it. One thing I do recommend considering is not creating a problem to fix a problem, really think out your design and dont just copy others people designs. Decide what you want to achieve in YOUR situation, then work out the best way to do it. There are a lot of very poorly designed systems out there that add a whole bunch of complexity for little to no gain and were put together by people who really don't know what or why they were doing it. eg. I see some herm systems with very long hoses between mash tun and heat exchanger that arent insulated-why take hot wort out of an insulated tun, through hoses where the temp is lost, into a heat exchanger to heat it back up, to then loose temp on the way back to the tun. Another great one, is people taking wort out of a well insulated mash tun, to run it through a heat exchanger where they are manually trying to hold the temp. If you are not trying to step the temp then why not just leave the wort in the well insulated tun? You'll lose more heat pulling liquid out of the vessel, pumping it around, juggling your heat exchanger temp and then putting it back in that you would have if you just left it and accepted a gradual slight drop in temp.

Just a final note, if you are worried about dropping mash temps or hitting your mash temps buy a hand held element. The best investment you can make, plus you can boil with it if you run out of gas or you can just plain use it to boil. They are awesome and I still use mine.

Cheers, Justin

 

[technocat]

Nice setup Justin. The ingenuity of the HB'er is only limited by the boundries of his imagination.

Cheers.