Rims, Herms, Single Step?

[seravitae]

Hi there,

Not sure if this is going to start some war about which method is best, but im finding a lot of mixed reports for mashing. Is it worth running a RIMS/HERMS setup over single step? It seems most big breweries are doing single step these days from what i read...



cheers

 

[newguy]

From my experience, my efficiency jumped 15% in going from mashing in an esky (single step) to a HERMS. Other advantages include being able to do multistep mashes, increased temperature accuracy/repeatability, and a degree of automation which frees you up on brew day.

I think that the reason commercial breweries don't employ a RIMS/HERMS comes down to practicality: it's pretty tough to raise the temperature of a 3,000l (or much more) mash without having a very beefy heating element/heat exchanger whose size and expense would both be rather prohibitive.

You can make great beer in an esky or with HERMS/RIMS or with other methods (BIAB, partials, "hacked" kits, etc). The point is to settle with something that makes you happy, produces what you deem to be acceptable beer, and does so with an equipment and raw material cost that you can live with. For me, that's now my HERMS but it used to be an esky.

 

[ArnieW]

I use a HERMS for convenience, even with single step mashes. It is a bit like going for a long drive in a car with cruise control compared to one without. Both can get you to the destination without any trouble, and keep consistent speeds without any trouble, but cruise makes it so much easier. I like the way I can dial in temperatures and keep them where I want them with a HERMS. It's not necessary but I love it.

 

[Screwtop]

I use HERMS for control and consistency, preferring to dough in at lower temps and raise to sacc temp. Basically this is still a single step mash however the grist does not contact liquid at a higher temp than required as is the case with infusion mashing where water of a higher temp is added and the result of the combined temperature of the grist and water equalise after some time to the desired mash temp. Sacrificing body and mouthfeel for increased attenuation by mashing lower was not what I wanted in my beers, the results are tangible, and have been wortwhile.

Screwy

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'd start with a nice single infusion system in an eski - I run a HERMS myself, but thats not how I'd suggest you start out. Just make a little effort to ensure your system is easily upgradable to a recirculating system.. then if you want to, just add that feature later.

If you are considering building a HERMS/RIMS anyway, my guess is that you are prepared for the expense, so spending a little more than the cheapest option on a single infusion system, will give you one where you wont have to waste anything.

Here's an example of what I mean: I'm not saying this is the only or the best way.. but just some food for thought

A single batch (19-24L) single infusion system (with a bit of flexibility)

1 x 36L eski (mash tun)
1 x Beerbelly eski false bottom
1 x 40-50L pot (HLT)
1 x 40-50L pot (kettle)
1 x 2400W handheld immersion element
1 x 3 ring burner and medium pressure adjustable reg
1 x something to allow you to feed from vessel to vessel via gravity OR 1 x March pump (recommended)
Ball valves and various plumbing bits for vessel conversion. Some silicon hose and either barbs or quick disconnects (recommended)
1 x Chiller OR No-Chill cube

* Eski and false bottom are your mash tun - big enough for a two run-off batch sparge, but not so big that it would make the grain bed too shallow for fly/flood sparging. Just big enough so that with planning you could manage a bit of infusion step mashing.
* Your HLT is electric via the handheld immersion element - this allows you to attach timers or thermostats at your will and gives you the flexibility of allowing you to use the element to add heat to your mash tun - meaning that direct heat step mashes are easily achieved.

This gives you a system that operates at its baseline as single infusion system... but allows you a couple of different ways of step mashing if you so desire & is suitable for all the popular methods of sparging except for No-Sparge

To up-grade it to a re-circulating system (HERMS) you need to add:-

1 x temperature controller. PID preferred but an on/off controller like a mashmaster will do it in a pinch and is simpler to set-up
1 x heat exchanger. Either a coil in your HLT (an immersion chiller works nicely and you might have one already....)
1 x March pump if you didn't already have one + 1 x ball valve for pump outlet
1 x return manifold or device to do the same thing
Hoses, plumbing bits and QDs to connect it all up

Your coil goes into your HLT - your electric element gets plugged into the temperature controller - the sensor from the controller goes onto the return manifold as close to the point where wort enters the Mash tun as possible (there are number of different ways to set up the sensor) - the pump goes in between the mash tun outlet and the coil

And now you have a HERMS

Or something along that line anyway....

Thirsty

 

[seravitae]

...i swear i keep posting replies and they just dont appear.. strange.. anyways thanks guys. You've been a big help clearing that up!



Cheers

 

[technocat]

View attachment 24667 This might help. (courtesy of another contributer)

 

[seravitae]

View attachment 24667 This might help. (courtesy of another contributer)

Yeah mate, that was actually the same link i was reading before to understand it.

Basically in HERMS you use a large® volume of water connected to the heat exchanger for thermal stabilization and also for isolation, since hot water/copper won't burn mash, but directly on a hot element it will.



cheers

 

[seravitae]

Sorry to revive an old thread but I seem to be miseducated here.

I'm trying to deduce what process is going on in each container. In the HLT, (hot lauter tun) is where the mash is recirculated in a closed loop (the copper coil) to heat it up for mashing, and the mash is then returned to the mash tun. that's 2 out of 3 containers.

What's the kettle for? It seems to not be used for anything much, do you actually put any grains/etc in this container (i dont think so?), or is it merely for heating and storing sparging water? If so, does that mean you use a significant amount of water in sparging compared to what comes out of the mash tun?

 

[jayse]

Sorry to revive an old thread but I seem to be miseducated here.

I'm trying to deduce what process is going on in each container. In the HLT, (hot lauter tun) is where the mash is recirculated in a closed loop (the copper coil) to heat it up for mashing, and the mash is then returned to the mash tun. that's 2 out of 3 containers.

What's the kettle for? It seems to not be used for anything much, do you actually put any grains/etc in this container (i dont think so?), or is it merely for heating and storing sparging water? If so, does that mean you use a significant amount of water in sparging compared to what comes out of the mash tun?

kettle does not need to be used in herms, in that pick its just hooked up to the pump so after the mashing you switch valves and pump the wort into the kettle for the boil etc.

 

[kirem]

HLT = Hot Liqour Tank ala hot brewing water. In a HERMS this can also have the coil in it for heating purposes OR you can have a seperate vessel for heating.

With a HERMS you pump the thin part of the mash (no grains) through a heat-exchanger either the HLT or a seperate vessel to maintain mashing temps.

Then transfer the thin part during sparging to the kettle for boiling and hop additions etc.

 

[tangent]

Some people think you have to use a HERMs system to step mash which is bullshit. You can step infusion in an esky or do like I and a few other guys do which is direct heat step mash. No pumps to buy, but it depends on if you're all about the beer or all about the toys.

 

[jayse]

Some people think you have to use a HERMs system to step mash which is bullshit. You can step infusion in an esky or do like I and a few other guys do which is direct heat step mash. No pumps to buy, but it depends on if you're all about the beer or all about the toys.

Some people even think the main purpose of HERMS is to step mash, also BS.
Infusion is the best way to step mash :excl:

 

[kirem]

Some people think you have to use a HERMs system to step mash which is bullshit. You can step infusion in an esky or do like I and a few other guys do which is direct heat step mash. No pumps to buy, but it depends on if you're all about the beer or all about the toys.

For some it is all about the beer AND all about the toys.

I have a HERMS, I like it, I like to improve it and I like making the best possible beer I can.

For me I like to have repeatability and I don't want to be trying to do what I know I can automate, for my situation and what I want a HERMS suits me.

I used to work in an electronic technical engineering field so my mind does try to put that into my brewing.

 

[Screwtop]

For some it is all about the beer AND all about the toys.

I have a HERMS, I like it, I like to improve it and I like making the best possible beer I can.

For me I like to have repeatability and I don't want to be trying to do what I know I can automate, for my situation and what I want a HERMS suits me.

I used to work in an electronic technical engineering field so my mind does try to put that into my brewing.

+1

Screwy

 

[seravitae]

...so the kettle is for after you are done mashing, you seperate the liquid portion and 'mash out' ie bring up to boiling temp? What's wrong with mashing out in the herms loop with the grain bits still in there?

Still not seeing the point of a whole nother heating container, when you already have one.. (herms/tun loop)

 

[Daniel.lear]

Sera,

Um, i dont use a RIMS or HERMS/ but i think you getting a little caught up.

The Esky/Herms/rims system is only for the Mash. Once you have converted all of your starches in the grain to sugars by Mashing in the mash tun, you then transfer the wort (sweet liquid only no grain husks) to a boiler/kettle. This is done to pasturise the wort, reduce your volumes, add hop additions that require boiling etc.

Palmers 'How to Brew' (an online brewing book) covers this process.

Cheers,

Leary

 

[TidalPete]

Infusion is the best way to step mash :excl:

If you say so jayse.
I used to do multiple steps with my gravity system too. Another good thing about HERMES is that I don't have to fill my MT to overflowing to get the water\grain ratio I want.

TP

 

[seravitae]

Leary, cheers heaps, that cleared things up. I'll go locate that book and have a read. I suppose if one wanted to be efficient/economical in terms of materials, and avoid having a static kettle, would it be possible to temporarly pump the liquid (using the HERMS pump) to a container (plastic even) to act as a resivoir, valve it shut, empty the grain and crap out of the mash tun, give it a quick wash, then insert it back into the system, open the valve and let the liquid flow back into the mash tun, then use the herms setup for mash-out/pasturization/hops/blah?

 

[jeddog]

how about posting some pics of ya HERMS/RIMS for all to see..

I'm about to build a set up using 3 legal kegs and not sure if i will use a separate vessel for heating.

need to see what others have done, just to get some ideas