Reuse Of Flavour/aroma Hops

[maltedhopalong]

Not worth it if you start getting brews significantly under or over hopped. You CAN work it out I guess, if you have a good calculator but I'm sure quality would suffer. Get some cheap-ass high aa hops for bittering (and boil the heck out of 'em) and use your expensive ones for taste/aroma if the price is that much of an issue.

(Oh, and you're not a cheapskate for thinking along these lines and don't let anyone tell you you are. It's just that the method you proposed originally will not actually work out cheaper, given you'll -PROBABLY- screw up brews by re-using them).

You could always try using iso-hops

/flamesuit on

 

[PostModern]

The re-use philosophy is not a bad one if you know what you're getting out the other end. I have a couple of times re-used grain! The best use was after a strong batch, I ran some more sparge water thru the grain, collected the runnings and used them as the dough-in water for my next batch. But I had a measurable amount of extract. I knew what gravity was in the tun, so I could adjust my next recipe. I doubt there are many affordable means for people to measure how much AA is left in their pre-used hops, so predictability is not there. I reckon if you got the same alpha % hop of different varieties from different sources, the results would be different even if you treated them identically. So sure, you might get some recovered alpha acids, but ^&@# knows how much.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Not worth it if you start getting brews significantly under or over hopped. You CAN work it out I guess, if you have a good calculator but I'm sure quality would suffer. Get some cheap-ass high aa hops for bittering (and boil the heck out of 'em) and use your expensive ones for taste/aroma if the price is that much of an issue.

(Oh, and you're not a cheapskate for thinking along these lines and don't let anyone tell you you are. It's just that the method you proposed originally will not actually work out cheaper, given you'll -PROBABLY- screw up brews by re-using them).

You could always try using iso-hops

/flamesuit on

Yes it's rather silly for people to criticise this method on the grounds of costs. The question asked whether the re-use of aromatic hops for bittering in a subsequent batch had any merit. If you didn't know the answer, you have no right to reject the notion on cost of hops alone. That wasn't this bloke enquiry.

Some of the best answers to problems we come across is when someone asks a simple question that when you think about it, will lead to a much better knowledge of a subject. In this case, when the question is answered properly (as attempted by mfdes & Dr S) we might actually find out if there some merit in the process.

In this recycling orientated world, we all look at re using seemingly spent material. Without these types of questions, we wouldn't have yeast washing or threads on whether spent grain is better in home baked bread, home made dog biscuits or for lacing with Tallon and chucking on the compost heap to kill rats.

Brew long and perspire

So sure, you might get some recovered alpha acids, but ^&@# knows how much.

Still on the flu tablets, aren't you.

 

[Beejay]

And remember, once you go AG and buying malt in bulk you will be saving heaps over extract and can afford to go more and better hops and yeasts. Nothing wrong with the recycle idea (it certainly has merit), but a lot of trial and error to make it somewhat repeatable. And with different hop harvests changing hop characteristics, each year will be a new start.

 

[PostModern]

Still on the flu tablets, aren't you.

What's that got to do with anything? But yes.

And remember, once you go AG and buying malt in bulk you will be saving heaps over extract and can afford to go more and better hops and yeasts. Nothing wrong with the recycle idea (it certainly has merit), but a lot of trial and error to make it somewhat repeatable. And with different hop harvests changing hop characteristics, each year will be a new start.

Indeed, make a lot of substandard or off-target beers in order to save a few bucks on hops. Seems not worth the trouble, imho.

 

[maltedhopalong]

Yes it's rather silly for people to criticise this method on the grounds of costs. The question asked whether the re-use of aromatic hops for bittering in a subsequent batch had any merit. If you didn't know the answer, you have no right to reject the notion on cost of hops alone. That wasn't this bloke enquiry.

Sorry but I thought he did - see: "As this hop is so expensive..."

Yeah I know at this point he was talking about using different hops for different parts of the hop profile to save money (as in fact, I have myself re: POR hops).

But I don't think it was unreasonable to believe that he wanted to re-use flavour hops for bittering because he felt it was a waste of money especially given the nature and tone of the post.

I stand by my point that while it is possible, the inability to measure the Alpha Acid left means that you're risking ruining entire brews and therefore not worth the benefit (which I thought was money/reducing wastefulness, I may have been wrong, but certainly others who look up this thread later may well be looking at it from this point of view).

Finally:

Some of the best answers to problems we come across is when someone asks a simple question that when you think about it, will lead to a much better knowledge of a subject. In this case, when the question is answered properly (as attempted by mfdes & Dr S) we might actually find out if there some merit in the process.

I agree 100% and if you have a look at a lot of my posts, you'll see I generally try to add any little tidbit of knowledge I may have to a thread so that it may help the writer even if not directly answering the question (which is what you said was the problem with my post, oddly enough). Like I said, others will read these threads later on too, so the more info the better.

I can scarcely see how I "rejected the notion" of re-using hops, merely tried to add light on the subject, which u then criticised me for not doing later on in your post.

My apologies for biting, but here I was trying to do exactly what you think we should all do (and so do I) and you tell me I was being dismissive.

 

[itguy1953]

(Oh, and you're not a cheapskate for thinking along these lines and don't let anyone tell you you are. It's just that the method you proposed originally will not actually work out cheaper, given you'll -PROBABLY- screw up brews by re-using them).

You could always try using iso-hops

/flamesuit on
[/quote]

Thanks for the support. I am not a cheapskate, I am into recycling, so I thought I would ask the question.

I was smart. When I heard about the pending hops shortage (I have a contact in the hops game), I bought up 5kg of Amarillo, 5Kg of Brewers Gold, 2.5Kg of Saaz. Since then I have acquired 1kg fresh Pride of Ringwood flowers, 500g of dry Columbus X Wild Kent flowers (a seedling) and 400g of dry Tardiff de Bourgogne flowers. I have quite a stock of hops, and the prediction is that the prices are going to climb far higher than they are now, and in the near future.

The fact is that there is a world wide shortage of hops, which is going to hurt home brewers, and craft brewers alike. I know an owner of a craft brewery in Victoria and he has just stockpiled 800Kg of hops to keep him going for 12 months. My mate in the hops game is getting calls and emails from all over the world looking for hops, and they are willing to pay top dollar.

What has caused the hop shortage is that the Chinese and Indian breweries have bought out the hop contracts from independent growers, and they paid 2-3 times the previous contract price.

So brace yourself one and all, hop supply will get very tight soon, and you will be paying more, and think yourself lucky to get them. Already my mate cannot buy Saaz in quantity, and I love this hop, so thought I would try and work out how to stretch out my supply.

On the under hopping potential of the final beer, there are simple ways to fix this. If I found that the beer was not bitter enough, I can just add isohops. No need to throw the brew out, just fix it. I have done this today to 3 kegs I have brewed from hopped extract cans, to which I added 1.2Kg of malt instead of dextrose. They turned out (as expected) to be under hopped. Just added 12 drops of isohops to bring the IBU up by approx 7 points (I do not mind an over bitter beer, so thought I would try to shoot for 7 points all in one go instead of adding a few points at a time - besides I want to drink the stuff soon). I will leave the brews in the fridge at 4 degC until the weekend, and then try them out. I want to leave them a few days for the isohops to blend in properly.

Barry

 

[PostModern]

On the under hopping potential of the final beer, there are simple ways to fix this. If I found that the beer was not bitter enough, I can just add isohops. No need to throw the brew out, just fix it. I have done this today to 3 kegs I have brewed from hopped extract cans, to which I added 1.2Kg of malt instead of dextrose. They turned out (as expected) to be under hopped. Just added 12 drops of isohops to bring the IBU up by approx 7 points (I do not mind an over bitter beer, so thought I would try to shoot for 7 points all in one go instead of adding a few points at a time - besides I want to drink the stuff soon). I will leave the brews in the fridge at 4 degC until the weekend, and then try them out. I want to leave them a few days for the isohops to blend in properly.

Barry

So can you re-use the iso-hops?

(just stirring the can).

 

[itguy1953]

So can you re-use the iso-hops?

(just stirring the can).

My kidneys are to efficient. Maybe if I was on a dialysis machine.....

 

[dr K]

I actually thought that this thread was a sort of light hearted jokey thing at first (and thus my reply), but I am getting really concerned here..the idea of re-using spent hops is just so wrong, just so stooopid. The hops are spent, they are kaput, they have shuffled off this mortal coil, they have fallen off the perch..they are spent, finished.
Lets look at pellets here because thats what most of have available (certainly in the case of US and Euro varieties), the hops are harvested and then processed as quickly as possible after the harvest, they are kept away from oxygen, heat and even light as much as is possible, the pelletting process is done at cold temperatures, the hops are sealed into oxygen barrier bags of 5 , 10 and greater kilo units and are kept as cool as possible for the period of storage. We are lucky here in Australia to have at least one re-seller who then breaks these 5kg packs down into smaller packs which are oxygen sealed almost immediately and then refridgerated thus we are able to purchase 90 or 450gm packs of hops in optimum condition.
Once we get them we store them oxygen free and (usually) frozen.
So after all this work, all this care, from the fields right through to the home fridge we (well not me I hasten to add) propose that we can throw these pellets into a boiling wort (with the mechanical and heat stress at full blast, blow them apart, and then expect some how to harvest the dead , spent foikin parrots off the floor of the boiler, or worse the fermentor and in some way utilise the un-isomerised (is there such a word, does not deserve to be) alpha acids in another brew.....
naaa...I was right in the first place, it is not conjecture its some weird joke...please...???

K

 

[Fatgodzilla]

naaa...I was right in the first place, it is not conjecture its some weird joke...please...???

K

Doctor, doctor .. is there a doctor in the house ?

You used pellets. Tough to re use since they will fall apart quickly. What about hop socks ? What about hop flowers ?


Now, first things first. Break down the question properly.

1. If you bung in a mob of hop pellets / plugs / flowers in the boil for like one minute, what exactly has happened ? What alphas, betas, gulags (or whatever its called) have been used / expended in the boil. Forget completely about re-use - someone answer the question - what in the hop has been used / expended / utilized in that one minute of boiling.

2. What is left ? What has been left in the mess, pulp, residual hops after a one minute boil ?

After we have answered that question, we can address the question

3. Is there is anything else worthwhile re using.

As I tried to say before, don't worry about what you think the original question said, don't worry about whether you would recycle hops, stop saying you are cheap, stop saying don't insult me if I called you cheap. Stop thinking of you. You're not the issue, hops are.

Go people

 

[brendanos]

Last time I bought Czech Saaz, they came in at a whopping 2.2%AA, and I've heard that recent harvests have been even more measly. So even if they were fresh "first hand" hops, you'd have to use a butt load to get any real bitterness out of them. And in doing so you might also end up with an undesirable green grass/chlorophyll character. Reusing dual purpose (hi alpha and aromatic) hops like nelson sauvin does seem like a good idea though. I look forward to reading the BYO article.

 

[Darren]

Doctor, doctor .. is there a doctor in the house ?

You used pellets. Tough to re use since they will fall apart quickly. What about hop socks ? What about hop flowers ?
cheap, stop saying don't insult me if I called you cheap. Stop thinking of you. You're not the issue, hops are.

Go people

Hey Fat,

Not being the one to usually defend the good doctor k, I am too perplexed by the issues of hop re-use.

Ever boiled a pot of water and thrown a "dob" of butter into it? What happened? The butter melted and was almost instantly indiscernable from the water.

Ever added a "sock" of hops to boiling wort and tasted the wort?? I bet you haven't. You can bet that I have . Boiling wort is bittered almost instantly by hops. I found I couldnt pull the hops out quick enough before I could easily taste them in the hot wort.

The 60-90 minute boil has very little to do with hop extraction. Its more to do with isomerisation of the hops oils and formation of hot break. Keeping the hops in the boil is easy and probably extract the last 1% remaining.

cheers

Darren

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Ever added a "sock" of hops to boiling wort and tasted the wort?? I bet you haven't. You can bet that I have .
Darren

You lose that bet. Haven't all brewers tasted their wort occasionally throughout the process ?

Stop thinking of you. You're not the issue, hops are.

Darren go back and re read Points 1,2 and 3 of my last post and if you can answer the question, please go for it.

Yesterday arvo my copy of "Brew" arrived and Mr Wizard was asked that same question (coincidence Barry R ?) Briefly he didn't fully answer the Points I raised but didn't poohaa the question out of hand as most have done. He pretty much eliminated pellets from this discussion very much along the lines of dr K 's treaty but thought it possible with whole hops. He thought there would be a loss of oils / flavours but could not guess the proportions of the loss. His main point was to try a side by side testing and see if you could work out how much hop "efficiency" (for lack of a better word) was lost. I'm assuming that the question will be on the BYO website in the Ask Mr Wizard section for anyone interested.

 

[Darren]

fatg,

Most of the hop oils have been removed in that one minute. By 5 minutes 99.9% will have been removed. Doesn't leave much for re-use.

cheers

darren

 

[Adamt]

This is exactly what I said in the first page (which seems to have been ignored)... most of the resins will wash off of the hops during the first boil. (Great minds think alike, Darren ).

Think about it this way... throw a visually dirty person (imitating resins on a hop cone) into a pool (the kettle), and have them splash around for a minute (boiling creates motion) and then get them out of the pool. There's no soap dissolving the dirt (isomerisation), but how much visible dirt will be left on them?

 

[Fatgodzilla]

This is exactly what I said in the first page (which seems to have been ignored)... most of the resins will wash off of the hops during the first boil.

Most of the hop oils have been removed in that one minute. By 5 minutes 99.9% will have been removed. Doesn't leave much for re-use.

So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.

I don't think so.

 

[troydo]

So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.

I don't think so.

try it and see....

 

[Fatgodzilla]

try it and see....

I don't think so :lol:

 

[Adamt]

So, per these answers, we can remove all our hops from the boil after one to five minutes because there will be nothing of any significance left in them.

I don't think so.

Why not? You probably could and notice little difference. I won't be trying it (as well as reusing) because I get predictable, repeatable results leaving them in for the whole boil.

If you don't want to test this yourself, why are you insisting on getting a definitive scientific answer to your questions? One of the main steps of developing scientific theory is to experiment.