Randy Mosher Pale Ale Water Profile

[manticle]

Understood.

Would the mash pH change over time as more "things" are absorbed into the wort from the grain?

To an extent. Phosphates in the mash act as a buffer and resist change so the mash will kind of set itself at a point.

 

[verysupple]

~50g of hops in the boil and water is your problem?

Doubt it.

I think I agree with bum here, although maybe for a different reason. Different hops (or sometimes even different harvests of the same hop) can give very different bittering characteristics. There are many other things that affect percieved bitterness and the character of bitterness too. I'm not saying it's not the water profile, I'm just saying it's not the first thing I would be looking into.

 

[mabrungard]

Hi Martin just done a few calculations on your spreadsheet and have a quick question.

It states that my estimated PH of the mash at room temperature will be 5.2 and gives me a green box. Doesn't this mean that the PH at actual mash temperature would be about 4.9, is that not too low?

At mashing temperature, the pH is lower. However, we have standardized on measuring and reporting mash pH at room temperature for a multitude of reasons.

A 5.2 pH may be low depending upon the beer style. The more typical 'average' mash pH target is around 5.4. You may want to boost the pH a bit if you don't intend to produce a tart beer.

 

[slash22000]

Is there a list somewhere of recommended mash pH levels by beer style? There is a lot of discussion on ideal pH levels varying between styles but I can't seem to find recommended pH levels anywhere.

 

[manticle]

Could start with optiumum pH for individual enzyme activity and work backwards. ie - want to favour beta activity for a driewr style, optimise pH for beta.

 

[mabrungard]

Is there a list somewhere of recommended mash pH levels by beer style? There is a lot of discussion on ideal pH levels varying between styles but I can't seem to find recommended pH levels anywhere.

I've never seen a listing per beer styles, but I've included a broader guidance in Bru'n Water. Tart styles: 5.2 to 5.3, Pale styles: 5.3 to 5.4, Darker styles: 5.4 to 5.5.

 

[verysupple]

Is there a list somewhere of recommended mash pH levels by beer style? There is a lot of discussion on ideal pH levels varying between styles but I can't seem to find recommended pH levels anywhere.

I found this presentation by Weyermann about pH in the brewery. About half way through there's a slide with typical mash pHs of some styles. An interesting read if you can ignore the sales pitch (they're trying to sell acidulated malt).

http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Weyermann_TKW_Mash-pH_2010.pdf

EDIT: Corrected wrong info.
2nd EDIT: After actually reading it again those pH values seem pretty low, but I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether to believe it or not.

 

[mabrungard]

Yeah, those pH values are typical for finished beers. Not mash pH. There are a few slides later in that presentation that seem to target the more typical mashing pH range of 5.2 to 5.6. I think the author just mis-labeled the title of the table, it should have read 'beer pH'.

 

[verysupple]

Yeah, those pH values are typical for finished beers. Not mash pH. There are a few slides later in that presentation that seem to target the more typical mashing pH range of 5.2 to 5.6. I think the author just mis-labeled the title of the table, it should have read 'beer pH'.

Ah, good to know. Serves me right for only Ctrl+F-ing "style" instead of actually skimming through it and looking for the relevant slide. It's been a long time since I actually read it properly.

 

[ricardo]

Sorry to drag this up again but I have a question regarding bicarbonates. Most literature and forums that I read suggest that bicarbonate levels be kept below 50 ppm for pale beers, however the Randy Mosher pale ale profile states that the bicarbonate level should be 110 ppm. The reason I ask is that I am having real difficulty in keeping the bicarbonate level under 50 ppm (it is 38 ppm out of the tap). When brewing pales I need to increase alkalinity as the pH seems to be around 5.2 at room temperature which I believe is too low, the downside is that the raise in alkalinity increases the bicarbonates pushing me way over 50 ppm.

Distilled water in Oz is too expensive and I do not have an RO system, anybody have any ideas?

 

[mabrungard]

In the case of that pale ale profile, it is loaded with calcium and magnesium which drive the residual alkalinity (RA) of the water down. RA would be far too negative if the water's alkalinity were very low. So having a bit of alkalinity in the case of that water profile is OK. That helps keep the mash pH and resulting kettle wort pH up. Colin Kaminsky has observed that a kettle wort pH of about 5.4 is best for hop-focused beers to help enhance the hop bittering and expression. If you brew a hoppy beer with the pale ale profile that didn't have enough alkalinity, the pH would likely end up several tenths lower than that.

If you have water with high alkalinity and the other ions aren't over the limit, then you may be able to create a decent pale ale profile with mineral additions and possibly a bit of acid to knock out some alkalinity if its too high.

 

[kahlerisms]

Just make sure calcium is over 50 and chloride/sulfate ratio is ~1:3 (1 part chloride to 3 parts sulfate). EDIT: Just realised your original profile coincidentally hits the 1:3 ratio almost exactly. 28 CL to 85 SO4 = 1.00:3.04

?

When I plug Ricardo's additions (16g gypsum, 1.6 cacl, 5.6 epsom) into my EZ spreadsheet I certainly don't get 1:3.
How'd you get 85 S04?

I end up with 268 S04, which is a chloride:sulfate ratio of 0.11, not the 0.33 we're aiming for.

(i know this is an old thread but this stuff doesn't really change)

 

[ricardo]

?
When I plug Ricardo's additions (16g gypsum, 1.6 cacl, 5.6 epsom) into my EZ spreadsheet I certainly don't get 1:3.
How'd you get 85 S04?

I end up with 268 S04, which is a chloride:sulfate ratio of 0.11, not the 0.33 we're aiming for.

(i know this is an old thread but this stuff doesn't really change)

I've since moved away from the whole sulfate chloride ratio as i don't believe it relevant. A beer with 30 ppm sulfate and 15 ppm chloride would have a totally different taste to 400 ppm sulfate and 200 ppm chloride. I've just been using trial and error and i believe i'm now refining thing to my taste

 

[kahlerisms]

How does Randy's Pale Ale water profile match your taste?