Possible Problems From Extended Diacetyl Rest

[bconnery]

So, my german pilsner had undergone the bulk of fermentation and I put it into my ale fermenting box for a diacetyl rest.
A day or two at 17C then back in the fridge to come down...
Trouble is, at some point during the day my beer fridge got unplugged, and remained so for a day or so.
(Big black permanent marker now on the power point and soon to be gaffa taped as well :angry: )
The lager got up as high as 21C. So I may have had up to 4+ days at higher temps.

Now I am relatively new to lagers and have had success with short rests and then cooling but beyond that, new territory.

So, lager experts, any likely side effects and can they be resolved by sticking it in the back of the fridge and forgetting about it for longer than I normally do?
Any other solutions?

Beer was basic pils + a little other malt and s-189 yeast.

 

[SJW]

Not worth getting upset about now, as you can't do a thing about it. And the best news is it wont make any diff. at all. As long as the bulk of the fermentation took place at the appropriate temps it will be great. At least you know it's 100% fermented out.
Before I had temp control I did complete Lager ferments at that temp with no great dramas. Just crash and keg

Steve

 

[bconnery]

Cheers Steve.
Not worried per se just that I guess I was hoping for a lot from this brew after the success of it's predecessor...
I'll just lager it for longer than I normally would anyway...
I have one more keg than I do fridge taps so it will be easy to do, as long as I hide the picnic tap...

Something had to go slightly wrong too as I had been bragging to myself about the purple patch I was going through brewing wise...

 

[underback]

As the bulk of primary was done, then added fruitiness would probably be minimal. An extended rest will only serve to reduce the lagering time because the clean up would be much more rapid, so proceed as normal would be my suggestion (and hope it's fine)

Cheers

 

[SJW]

I know the feeling mate, the last time I started feeling good about the purple patch I was going through I realised my HLT and Mash Tun Dial thermometers were not calibrated correctly and ended up mashing 5 - 7 deg C below what I wanted, then halfway through the boil the burner jet clogged up with that grease stuff, then during the recirculation of the boil while I was cooling I left the valve open from the HLT and diluted the brew and to top it off the hose poped off the kettle while transfering to the fermenter. So I never take and good brew day for granted now.

Steve

 

[TidalPete]

I know the feeling mate, the last time I started feeling good about the purple patch I was going through I realised my HLT and Mash Tun Dial thermometers were not calibrated correctly and ended up mashing 5 - 7 deg C below what I wanted, then halfway through the boil the burner jet clogged up with that grease stuff, then during the recirculation of the boil while I was cooling I left the valve open from the HLT and diluted the brew and to top it off the hose poped off the kettle while transfering to the fermenter. So I never take and good brew day for granted now.

Steve

SJW,

You poor bugger. I have had my share of bad days but not quite as bad as you describe above.


TP :beer:

 

[matti]

Always great to hear about purple patches.

The rest should have done no harm.
As for lagering long. no probs. She'll be crystal clear.
If you force carb you'll be able to enjoy it sooner.
If you prime with sugar you should not expect to drink it too soon as she may take a few more weeks to prime up.
I find about 3 weeks @ 18 degrees then another 3 weeks @ 12ish.

Keep brewing.
Cannot wait for autumn so I can store my bottles in the garage again.

 

[Ross]

Hi Ben,

Will do no harm at all. A local customer makes almost entirely Czech pilsners & he's been getting good results fermenting Swiss Lager Yeast at ale temps.
Not that I'd recommend it, but no fruitiness at all & clean as....

cheers Ross

Edit :Spieling

 

[Darren]

Oh no here I go again,

BC Connery, did you taste diacetyl in your beer?? If not there is no reason for a diacetyl rest.

If you started with healthy yeast they will readily consume diacetyl at lager temps.

Diacetyl rests are one of things that brewers read "on the internet" and feel they have to do one to get good product. I say its rubbish. If there was no diacetyl to begin with then no need for the rest.

cheers

Darren

 

[goatherder]

I tend to agree with Darren here - not all lager yeasts need a rest and I believe it depends a lot on yeast health, pitch rates and ferment length. With S189 and Wyeast 2001 (my current absolute favourite :wub I've never needed a diacetyl rest. Make sure your pitch is big enough (2 packets of dry yeast, 3-4 litres of starter for a liquid or pitch from a slurry) and leave it in primary for 3 weeks.

 

[sah]

Diacetyl rests are one of things that brewers read "on the internet" and feel they have to do one to get good product. I say its rubbish. If there was no diacetyl to begin with then no need for the rest.

Is it also true that the majority of people (brewers?) cannot detect and / or identify diactetyl?

Scott

 

[bconnery]

Ben,

Am curious about your ale fermenting box (Especially in the temps that we live with up here). Is the box just a compromise to having another fermenting fridge or do you have a secret?
Care to share?

TP :beer:

No secret Pete. It's a fermentation chiller, or something like that, as detailed here, except I bought it from someone as opposed to building it as shown in the link...
It is an insulated box with a computer fan hitched to a black box. The fan draws cool air from frozen water bottles into the main box where the fermenter is.
I used to use it for all beers because I only had one beer fridge and no temp controller.
Now I use it for ales only, and do lagers in the keg fridge, as it has a temp controller...

 

[bconnery]

I've read that many people can't perceive diacetyl, even at high levels, as well. But it may have been "on the internet" which would make it probably wrong apparently

I am playing around with my lager making and at the moment do a diacetyl rest, although I have not at other times.
As there is conflicting advice, "on the internet" on the need for a rest. Very good lager makers do it. Very good lager makers don't.
I choose to find out what works for me...

I guess I really knew that there probably wasn't going to be any issues, or at least none that a lagering wouldn't fix but you know, sometimes you worry about what the other half calls "your other babies"...

Maybe I'll lager this one longer than my customary one week though, just in case

 

[Tyred]

I normally do a rest and then rack and cold condition for 2 weeks. Whether it not it needs the rest is a different matter. I've never tasted diacetyl in any of the lagers I've been making. I may be one of the people who cannot detect it.

That's what it all boils down to. Doing what you feel comfortable with.

Wasn't it on here that someone said "ask two homebrewers a question and you'll get three different answers" or something like that.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think Darren's right on that there is no real need to do a D rest if you cant taste diacetyl (assuming you can taste it at all) but... I also don't think that you can actually hurt your beer by doing one.

So if you make a D rest a standard part of your lager brewing regimen, then you have covered all bases. Thats how I look at it, and mostly how I have brewed my lagers. But I haven't actually done that many lagers... so my experience points are a little on the low side. Still I think that as with a lot of brewing things, finding a process that works for you and then going for consistency within that process, will ultimately result in consistency of product. Good bad or otherwise, consistent. And that makes fault finding and tweaking to achieve excellence, a whole lot easier.

I can detect diacetyl and I loath it, so I'm happy to take ANY advice that means I never get this flavour in my beer... even in the styles where it mightn't strictly be a fault. Thats why I do a D rest as "standard". The again, I dont want ot be hurting my beer in other ways. Am I?

Darren... you seem to have a strong opinion on this one. It obviously comes from stuff you know (that I certainly don't) whats your view? Are there potential adverse effects to doing an unnecessary D rest? Beyond wasting a couple of days and inherent objections to wasting effort?

 

[geoffi]

The increasingly strong opinion out there seems to be that longer primary fermentation times are not a problem, and in fact are positive.

Maybe diacetyl rests are unnecessary, but I've never read anything on the 'internets' to suggest they are harmful. I do it rather to get a little more attenuation than for the alleged diacetylocidal effects.

Anyway, whatever works for you.

The world does not turn on the diacetyl rest.

 

[Ross]

I think Darren's right on that there is no real need to do a D rest if you cant taste diacetyl (assuming you can taste it at all) but... I also don't think that you can actually hurt your beer by doing one.

So if you make a D rest a standard part of your lager brewing regimen, then you have covered all bases. Thats how I look at it, and mostly how I have brewed my lagers. But I haven't actually done that many lagers... so my experience points are a little on the low side. Still I think that as with a lot of brewing things, finding a process that works for you and then going for consistency within that process, will ultimately result in consistency of product. Good bad or otherwise, consistent. And that makes fault finding and tweaking to achieve excellence, a whole lot easier.

I can detect diacetyl and I loath it, so I'm happy to take ANY advice that means I never get this flavour in my beer... even in the styles where it mightn't strictly be a fault. Thats why I do a D rest as "standard". The again, I dont want ot be hurting my beer in other ways. Am I?

My sentiments exactly - I also can detect it very easily.

Cheers Ross

 

[Screwtop]

Have never had a problem with Diacetyl in lagers but

Off Topic:

Acetaldehyde (green apple) has been strong in three out of four lagers recently, two using the same malt bill 50/50 Wey Pills and Galaxy, much worse in the remaining batch 100% WeyPils which seems kind of weird. All the same yeast 189 fermented at 10C, the last two were left on the yeast for 4 weeks, on racking to kegs one exihibits the aroma and one not. Different hops used in all four. The worst affected was given a D rest at 18 for 2 days. It was also filtered after the rest and kegged for lagering, the aroma seems to be lessening after 4 weeks lagering.

Thoughts?

 

[bconnery]

I'm not a lager expert but someone suggested to me recently that if you had a lager on the yeast for anything longer than two then you weren't pitching enough yeast, and even two was stretching it...

My understanding is that this can be caused by prematurely removing the beer from the yeast, but that clearly isn't the problem, or by bacteria, but unless you've picked up an infection in all four that would seem unlikely...
Normally it is cleared by secondary fermentation so perhaps trying that?
Oxidation is also listed as a cause in places, nothing different on your technique this time?

The other most common cause is youth... So maybe as you said, extended lagering will eventually resolve the problem...

But really I'm just reading as to common causes and suggesting things from there, and none of them seem likely in your case...

 

[Jye]

Screwy, the marzen I brewed last year also reeked of Acetaldehyde and Ive got not idea how it came about. The pils I brewed at the same time came out fine :huh: