Please Check My Water Additions

[kevin_smevin]

Hi Aaron, if you read Tony's article it explains the use of carbonate in stout.
It's primary function is to raise the Ph to offset the lower Ph of the dark roast malts, it's just an added bonus that carbonate will also accentuate the malt profile, I dont belive this flavour change is a Ph issue, though you are right in thinking a more acidic beer will taste less malty, just like an IPA cut through the fat in a big juicy steak.

If you're not reading your Ph accurately & just guessing, try 120ppm of carbonate, should be enough unless you're very heavy handed with roast barley or black patant malt.

120ppm carbonate is WAY too high. The buffering effect of carbonate is about 4 times stronger then that of Ca. The effect of roasted malts on mash pH is not that high. Every brew text book (read text book, not home brew book) recommends keeping carbonate below 50ppm, that is the max. Keep it below 25ppm for pale beers. A textbook by wolfgang Kunze (cant remember the name of the book) recommends the above for carbonate levels and also says the optimum pH of a mash is below 5.2 which is on the acidic side of the mash pH range - pH below 5.2 will inhibit the action of lipoxygenase enzyme which is one of the main enzymes responsible for beer becoming stale. I have never read a professional brew textbook that recommends the addition of carbonate. Of course Melbourne's water has pretty much none at all so small additions would not hurt but dont go overboard, keep it below 50ppm. Try keep your ppm Ca about 4 times higher then your carbonate.

 

[felten]

IMO these spreadsheets need to be taken with a large grain of salt, they are just a rough guide, one that takes into account a lot of assumptions.

If you are concerned that your mash pH isn't where it should be, then you need to go out and purchase a pH meter, or some pH strips and measure it, then adjust with whatever you have on hand. Otherwise just add them for flavour and forget about guessing what the pH will be.

 

[katzke]

Recipes for water are a tricky thing. While there is basis for the calculations used there is no ideal formula for any beer. Treating water is done for 2 reasons. To try and get the pH in an acceptable range, and to influence the flavor. As you can see from the responses neither of these reasons has agreement on how to do it. Add the complication of differing results from all the variables in home brewing and it gets very hard to get reliable results.

What I do when making up a water recipe is look for all the input I can get from other similar beer recipes. I have also got some reference formulas from brewing books. I believe that brewing classic styles (is that the name?) has information in the back on collected additions for most brewing styles. I then start punching numbers in several programs and spreadsheets I have for calculating water profiles. I then take a best guess and brew. I check to see if the pH is close. I use strips and as long as it looks good I am happy. Then the true test is in tasting.

Take a balanced approach. Your first try of a single addition was very simple and as you could see the resulting flavor profile was not balanced. You will find that it is almost impossible to get the numbers exactly to where you want them. No two brewers will agree on what the water should be like. Just get as close as you can and brew.

I would give you a water recipe for a stout if I had one.

 

[manticle]

I have used the information provided and inputted that to the EZ Water calculator programme,this is what was asked for,
whether this will make a good brew I am not sure.

There are multiple ways you could use the calculator to get the right pH. No point making recommendations if you don't know how they might end up. The reading I've done suggests your additions are out.

I'm not having a go at you but this is exactly why I won't make suggestions as to what Aaron should be adding. He's already been told 15 different things.

 

[aaronpetersen]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting views on water adjustments. I think I will buy some pH strips, check my mash pH, and then adjust accordingly with either CaCl2 or CaCO3. This then leads me to my next question. How do I calculate how much of a certain salt I need to add to bring the pH into the range I want? As far as I can tell the EZ water calc can't do that.

 

[OzBeer_MD]

you might find this calculator http://jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html useful, even if just for a second opinion.

MD

 

[kevin_smevin]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting views on water adjustments. I think I will buy some pH strips, check my mash pH, and then adjust accordingly with either CaCl2 or CaCO3. This then leads me to my next question. How do I calculate how much of a certain salt I need to add to bring the pH into the range I want? As far as I can tell the EZ water calc can't do that.

I dont think there is a way. Because of all of the variables (grain composition etc) there is no direct correlation between salt additions and pH change. In my opinion it is best to adjust pH with acid additions - lactic or phosphoric. Salt additions should be made to improve the process and adjust flavour - 50-100ppm Ca in all brews, Cl to accentuate Malt flavours, S04 to accentuate hop bitterness and provide a minerally flavour.

So my advice would be to buy some pH strips, make your salt additions based on flavour, mash in and check your pH (check pH of sample at room temp). If it needs adjusting, add some acid. I think its rare that your mash will be too acidic unless you use alot of acidified malt. If it is, you'd have to add carbonates, probably as bi carb which is fine, Na (salt) is a flavour enhancer - be very careful when adding carbonates as a small amount makes a big difference. Record everything you do so next time you brew you'll have a better idea about where you need to go in terms of pH.

Good luck

 

[aaronpetersen]

I dont think there is a way. Because of all of the variables (grain composition etc) there is no direct correlation between salt additions and pH change. In my opinion it is best to adjust pH with acid additions - lactic or phosphoric. Salt additions should be made to improve the process and adjust flavour - 50-100ppm Ca in all brews, Cl to accentuate Malt flavours, S04 to accentuate hop bitterness and provide a minerally flavour.

So my advice would be to buy some pH strips, make your salt additions based on flavour, mash in and check your pH (check pH of sample at room temp). If it needs adjusting, add some acid. I think its rare that your mash will be too acidic unless you use alot of acidified malt. If it is, you'd have to add carbonates, probably as bi carb which is fine, Na (salt) is a flavour enhancer - be very careful when adding carbonates as a small amount makes a big difference. Record everything you do so next time you brew you'll have a better idea about where you need to go in terms of pH.

Good luck

Thanks Yum, that sounds like good advice to me. One (hopefully) last question. How important is the chloride/sulfate ratio in a malty beer like a stout? Can it be too high? For instance, can I get away with using only CaCl2 to get my Ca levels up or should I also add some CaSO4?

 

[katzke]

Thanks Yum, that sounds like good advice to me. One (hopefully) last question. How important is the chloride/sulfate ratio in a malty beer like a stout? Can it be too high? For instance, can I get away with using only CaCl2 to get my Ca levels up or should I also add some CaSO4?

Balance Balance Balance.

Yes you can get a good idea of how much to add to get the pH level for a beer recipe. It may not be spot on but better then batting in the dark.

Following the advice of someone that says to have acid ready to balance the pH in a stout may cause you problems. Dark grains will be acid already. The problem is by the time you know what your pH is a bunch of conversion has happened already.

You answered me once by saying you have read a bunch on water. You keep asking questions you should have an idea about if you did read a bunch. It is very common to see advice on what levels are recommended for each of the brewing salts. Too much can be a bad thing.

Try looking at the link given for the water calculator. It has recommendations for a stout. I do not like how far out the chloride/sulfate ratios are for the stout or some of the other recommendations. At least it is a place to start.

Remember Balance Balance Balance. If all you had to do was dump in some of this for that beer you would be reading it in all you have read on the subject.

If you have not done it start with Palmer. Then go here http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html, then go here http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b...ue1.3/king.html, then here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...tanding_Mash_pH. I have not checked the links. I am sure I have more sources if you want to read more.

 

[dent]

The problem is by the time you know what your pH is a bunch of conversion has happened already.

This isn't a problem - if the pH is wrong, then conversion will be slow until you correct it. If it is right, then everything is OK anyhow. The pH can never in practise be bad enough to ruin your enzymes, and there is no such thing as a 'bad' conversion due to faulty pH.

Measuring and correcting the pH after dough in is in my opinion a much more effective and reliable method then attempting to calculate it beforehand - a process which is evidently up to much interpretation even here. Obviously you organise your grist/salts beforehand to put yourself in the ballpark, but leave yourself room to manoeuvre.

 

[katzke]

This isn't a problem - if the pH is wrong, then conversion will be slow until you correct it. If it is right, then everything is OK anyhow. The pH can never in practise be bad enough to ruin your enzymes, and there is no such thing as a 'bad' conversion due to faulty pH.

Measuring and correcting the pH after dough in is in my opinion a much more effective and reliable method then attempting to calculate it beforehand - a process which is evidently up to much interpretation even here. Obviously you organise your grist/salts beforehand to put yourself in the ballpark, but leave yourself room to manoeuvre.

Each to there own. I find that calculating additions is easy if you have an idea of what you have and want. Will it get me to 5.2? Have no clue as I use strips to measure. In fact the only beers I have had problems calculating are wheat beers. Not surprising as the calculators are designed for barley. The solution for me is to treat wheat beers as a darker beer. A case where experience and observation are important. Results have been repeatable so far.

So in my experience calculating salt additions for pH is easy and possible. Taste additions are subjective. I am happy with my results on that also. The 2:1 1:1 and 1:2 ratios for Chloride/Sulfate work. You need to remember to balance the other additions because Sodium will effect flavor also. Dang I am back to Balance again.

 

[kevin_smevin]

Balance Balance Balance.

Yes you can get a good idea of how much to add to get the pH level for a beer recipe. It may not be spot on but better then batting in the dark.

Following the advice of someone that says to have acid ready to balance the pH in a stout may cause you problems. Dark grains will be acid already. The problem is by the time you know what your pH is a bunch of conversion has happened already.

You answered me once by saying you have read a bunch on water. You keep asking questions you should have an idea about if you did read a bunch. It is very common to see advice on what levels are recommended for each of the brewing salts. Too much can be a bad thing.

Try looking at the link given for the water calculator. It has recommendations for a stout. I do not like how far out the chloride/sulfate ratios are for the stout or some of the other recommendations. At least it is a place to start.

Remember Balance Balance Balance. If all you had to do was dump in some of this for that beer you would be reading it in all you have read on the subject.

If you have not done it start with Palmer. Then go here http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html, then go here http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/b...ue1.3/king.html, then here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...tanding_Mash_pH. I have not checked the links. I am sure I have more sources if you want to read more.

Its true, dark grain are acidic as i have mentioned. The percentage of dark grains in your mash isn't that high however and their contribution towards lowering mash pH isn't huge. I'd be very surprised if you mashed in with a stout recipe and found your pH too low. I still recommend adding your salts for flavour etc and just measure your pH at the beginning of your mash. Brewing is a learning curve, you shouldn't expect to be spot on right from the start - if you record everything you did, in time you will be able to figure out exactly what is needed to hit your target pH. There is nothing wrong with using only CaCl but it really comes down to personal preference. Try it this way, and then balance a bit with S04 next time and see which you like better. Recommend ratio's are a good guie but they aren't for everyone.