Paul Mercurio's Peach Beer

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Malnourished

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Mercs Own said:
Mullet says..."It annoys me that yet another new Australian micro beer is taking the novelty route as opposed to concentrating on making some good, solid beer, which is what the industry in this country so desperately needs" Paul says..What annoys me is when a new micro brewery brings out a clone of what is already available many times over. My mission is to engage, educate and push the boundaries of what people percieve beer to be and to encourage and enlighten people to what be beer can be.
Oh dear. I am mullet. It seems I have a bit of a habit of causing trouble on this board! Sorry!

I don't really want to start an argument or anything but I probably should elaborate on what I was trying to express in the quote above. What I think of the beer is probably expressed sufficiently in my rating, though I have another bottle lying around so when I drink that I may change my opinion, but don't bet on it. My opinion of the beer is just one opinion, so take it for what it is. What I tend to do on Ratebeer is to look at people's highest-rated beers - if they like beers I like, then I generally trust their opinion. I would suggest people do that with my own ratings to see if I'm worth believing! (Probably not)

Anyway, I'm generally pretty disappointed with the Australian micro scene. There are a number of very good beers, but there is far too much crap and really nothing at a world-class level (though I think Thorogood's ciders might be up there). I hate it when micros bring out a Coopers Pale Ale or Boags Premium clone - what's the point? I also hate it when breweries bring out gimmick beers when they could be making something serious and good. (I think Blue Tongue falls into both categories! :blink:) Styles I would like to see brewed more here include Schwarzbier, Munich Dunkel, Rauchbier, Kellerbier, Vienna, strong bottle-conditioned Belgians, Alt, Kolsch, Baltic Porter, Barley Wine, Imperial Stout, Berliner Weisse, Biere de Garde, California Common, Imperial IPA, Mild, Saison, IPA with more than 35IBUs and generally anything served on cask (oh how I miss the Brandon :( ).

In the interest of fairness, I should probably mention some breweries which I feel are doing the right thing (ie. making beers not driven by marketing purposes, and making them well). Mountain Goat, Holgate, Little Creatures, Wig & Pen and Paddys (the example of substance over style hehe). I've probably missed a few. In fact I think the Wig & Pen is the perfect example of what I look for in an Aussie micro - they do a LOT of interesting styles which few other places do, and generally do them very well.

Also, opon re-reading my rating that the first line could be misconstrued as me having a go at Paul or somehow doubting his beery credentials. It was not my intention. I was just trying to express my feeling that most people will think of Strictly Ballroom, not beer, when they think of Paul Mercurio.
 

Snow

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Dunkel_Boy said:
That will leave me with one or two to give to Ross or somebody else. At least that's the plan...
Cheers,
Adrian
[post="52538"][/post]​
Hey Dunkel, I'm "somebody else"! :D

Seriously, I'd be keen to go in on a purchase with you.

Cheers - Snow
 

kitkat

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Malnourished said:
making beers not driven by marketing purposes
Are there any non-profit micros out there ? They're businesses, not charities catering to the demanding taste buds of 0.1% of homebrewers.

if you make beer and intend to sell the beer to recoup your investment and pay salaries, taxes, etc, you have to make something that'll sell.

Whilst it'd be nice to have an alt brewed and distributed here, it'd sell so little that it'd be commercial suicide. Doesn't matter how good the beer is, if people don't buy it, the micro will sink.

Nothing personal, but it seems some people only see the beer and not the economic reality.

I'd suggest micros can probably offer unusual beers on their premises as limited runs, but for example bottling and shipping all over Australia a beer that won't sell because people don't have a clue what it is (and when they taste it, it's so different from what they expect or are used to that they think it's bad) would just be stupid.
 

warrenlw63

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Or OTOH if the micro ain't got the beer you want.

Make it yourself. B)

Warren -
 

Malnourished

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kitkat said:
Malnourished said:
making beers not driven by marketing purposes
Are there any non-profit micros out there ? They're businesses, not charities catering to the demanding taste buds of 0.1% of homebrewers.

if you make beer and intend to sell the beer to recoup your investment and pay salaries, taxes, etc, you have to make something that'll sell.

Whilst it'd be nice to have an alt brewed and distributed here, it'd sell so little that it'd be commercial suicide. Doesn't matter how good the beer is, if people don't buy it, the micro will sink.

Nothing personal, but it seems some people only see the beer and not the economic reality.

I'd suggest micros can probably offer unusual beers on their premises as limited runs, but for example bottling and shipping all over Australia a beer that won't sell because people don't have a clue what it is (and when they taste it, it's so different from what they expect or are used to that they think it's bad) would just be stupid.
[post="52577"][/post]​
This is exactly the attitude that I feel many micros are taking and I reckon they're wrong. I think a good beer, regardless of style, will sell well. Little Creatures is the perfect example in this instance - nobody in Australia had even tasted an APA a few years ago and now they are nationwide and even exporting! They started out by making sure they had a good/great beer and marketed accordingly, not the other way around.

Coopers has defined the "Australian Pale Ale" style and it is readily available and cheap - why flood the market with similar beers?

And how does Merc's Own Peach Ale fit into this "economic reality"?

I'm with Warren - I got into homebrewing to make stuff you can't buy here. It'd just be nice to be able to buy one example of, say, Altbier to know whether or not I'm on the right track.
 

Dunkel_Boy

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That is true... after all, WE would buy it.
 

chiefman

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Hi Paul Welcome to the Forum

I could kill for a great tasting mango when in season so for your next project you should try and consider a mango beer.

Beer and Mangos What a combination :p
 

Kai

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kitkat said:
Malnourished said:
making beers not driven by marketing purposes
Are there any non-profit micros out there ? They're businesses, not charities catering to the demanding taste buds of 0.1% of homebrewers.

if you make beer and intend to sell the beer to recoup your investment and pay salaries, taxes, etc, you have to make something that'll sell.
[post="52577"][/post]​
I think what Malnourished means is that megabreweries view their product as nothing more than a commodity; something to make as cheaply as possible for the sole purpose of making money. Whereas, although a microbrewery does indeed want to make money, they often also do it for the love of beer and want to produce as great a beer as they can. Of course, there are exceptions to this (ie crap microbreweries in it for the money only, or big breweries that do care about their beer).

Not saying I necessarily agree with it, but I think that was the point he was trying to make.
 

Sean

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Two questions for Malnourished:

1. Where, other than the US, does your world of thriving domestic micros reproducing all the world's beers styles exist? I can't think of any other country where a large range of domestically brewed non-domestic styles are available. Certainly not the UK.

2. What makes you think that an Australian brewed Alt, say, would be a good reliable guide to the style? There are several beers available here calling themselves English style bitters and, although several of them are excellent beers (Holgate Old Ale, Hightail, 3 Ravens what ever its called, some of the Wig & Pen beers etc), I can't say any of them are an especially good guide to the authentic thing. If you really want to know what an Alt tastes like, you need at least one, preferably several, imports of good examples from the place of origin. Otherwise it seems to me you just end up creating an Australian-alt style.
 

Malnourished

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Sean said:
Two questions for Malnourished:

1. Where, other than the US, does your world of thriving domestic micros reproducing all the world's beers styles exist? I can't think of any other country where a large range of domestically brewed non-domestic styles are available. Certainly not the UK.
It doesn't, of course. And it is unrealistic to think that all styles would be brewed in such a small market. That doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't happen, at least to some degree. I don't think comparing Australia to the UK is ideal because the UK has such an ingrained beer culture (as does Germany, Belgium and the Czech Republic.) I think Canada is perhaps a better comparison ("New World", strong British influence, little/no indigenous beer culture) and it would appear (I don't have much experience with Canadian beer outside of Unibroue) that they are a long way ahead of us, though the American influence is obviously a driving force there.

Sean said:
2. What makes you think that an Australian brewed Alt, say, would be a good reliable guide to the style? There are several beers available here calling themselves English style bitters and, although several of them are excellent beers (Holgate Old Ale, Hightail, 3 Ravens what ever its called, some of the Wig & Pen beers etc), I can't say any of them are an especially good guide to the authentic thing. If you really want to know what an Alt tastes like, you need at least one, preferably several, imports of good examples from the place of origin. Otherwise it seems to me you just end up creating an Australian-alt style.
[post="52621"][/post]​
There was (is?) an Australian-brewed alt! Heidi (brewed at Mountain Goat by a guy who I think was called Nischwitz Cole) and it was pretty good I thought. I guess I was thinking more about imports when I said that, but I'd bet that more than a few of our current commercial brewers have been to Dusseldorf. I don't think there's any reason to believe that an Alt brewed in Australia would necessarily become an "Australian-alt". LCPA and Speculator, for instance, don't taste "Australian" alongside the few American APAs or IPAs I've had. That said, I still reckon I'd rather have an "Australian-alt" than yet another premium lager/pale ale/dark ale/witbier/pils. Of course ultimately it's not really about styles and accurately recreating them, just whether the beer is good or not - and I still reckon Aussie breweries could do better.

I guess my negativity isn't directed solely at Australian brewers, but the paucity of good imported beer as well. We can get pale lagers from nearly every country in the world, but very little of the really good stuff. I was going to say that it's understandable because of the size of the Australian market and the distance from most of the great breweries of the world, but then I remembered NZ gets Cantillon, Thomas Hardy, Boon and Burton Bridge stuff (and Saison Dupont!)
 

Steve Lacey

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Interestingly I agree with both mal (aka mullet) and kitkat. And I'm not sure that mal's point is necessarily advocating the rise of the State-run loss-making micro-brewery. Obviously the micro has to be commercially viable. But the point is, you have to have a balance between doing something worthy and making something that will sell. If you put too much emphasis on the latter, you end up just copying what is already available, and really, what is the point of that? But if you make really top notch characterful beers that are not otherwise available, it is not so much as capturing some part of an existing market, but creating a whole new one. So in that sense, micros do have to be somewhat adventurous and take a few risks while being pretty bloody good marketers and educators of prospective customers. I think the best example in Australia that I'm familiar with (and I'm getting way out of touch) was the Malt Shovel. They brought out beers that Joe Public had never heard of, but every bottle label was an instalment in Beer Styles 101. Of course they had the financial security of a huge company behind them to do it properly and to take the risk.

My 2c

Steve
 

Steve Lacey

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sorry, I hadn't read the whole thread before posting that last reply. I'd also add that the micro scene in Japan is not unlike the way it seems to be developing in Australia. There is a lot of hit and miss, with more miss than hit. Australia is probably ahead in that regard. There is, or was in the first five to ten years, a lack of creativity and passion, and a lot of entrants did just see it as a way of making a buck. Many of those operators have gone under, and it is the better breweries more dedicated to the craft and to the principle of bringing out a product that offers a real alternative that are surviving and/or prospering.
 

Trent

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Paul
I havent trid the magic hat IPA, the apricot is called Magic Hat Number 9, and it is very good. I am sure that ya have gotten to try some of the other good beers from that corner of the US, like Saranac, and Yeungling, and some of the other micros. If yer sister lives in New York, and comes over often, get her to bring ya a bottle of Arrogant Bastard Ale by Stone breweries, see if ya could come up with something similar to that. I dunno that it would sell very well in Oz, as it is probably one of the most offensive beers I have ever had (as opposed to most commercial crap ya can get here). None of my aussie mates that have tried it think it is very nice, but I loved it. very malty, hoppy and super heavy - just what the average home brewers does at home anyway! (Check out arrogantbastard.com for a supplier list for NY.) Sierra Nevada Celebration is a cracker, and for something with a raspberry undertone, the last Sam Adams winterbrew I had was great, so get her to bring some of them next time. Better yet, go on a tax write-off "beer education tour". The US micro scene is really good for fruit-esque beers, and all other sorts of top drops. I would be stoked if that sorta scene took off here in Australia, but as someone said, it could also be commercial suicide.
Cheifman, I did a mango amber once, turned out quite nicely, may do one again next mango season, I reckon ya should try one yaself.
Malnourished, I lived in Canada for 9 months and am getting married to a canadian girl, and have to agree that their micro scene is WAY ahead of ours. I think it is the US influence, as you said. I think that someone on here once said that the US micro scene only has 3% of the market. I lived in California for 9 months aswell, and I reckon amongst the younger crew, it must be around 15-20% Maybe what we need is someone ready to take a big chance, and create a new market (like Steve just said). Dunno if it would work, but if someone had the money to try, it would be worth a shot.
Wow, this is a pretty long rant. Ummmm, I'l shut up now
All the best
Trent
 

Malnourished

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Trent said:
Maybe what we need is someone ready to take a big chance, and create a new market (like Steve just said). Dunno if it would work, but if someone had the money to try, it would be worth a shot.
[post="52633"][/post]​
I agree - I'll do the brewing if someone else wants to put up the cash :D
 

Dunkel_Boy

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Trent said:
I dunno that it would sell very well in Oz, as it is probably one of the most offensive beers I have ever had (as opposed to most commercial crap ya can get here). None of my aussie mates that have tried it think it is very nice, but I loved it.
[post="52633"][/post]​
Hmmm, I don't know about other people, but I wasn't convinced.

I think hit or miss, the Australian craft brew market should be supported, for a few obvious reasons, one of which can also be broken down into the fact that maybe one day we'll be trying to sell our Munich dunkel, and if there are a lot of Aussie boutique beers on the market 5 years down the track, we'll have a much better chance than if everything gets shut down right now just because it's not a 10/10 beer or because it has been done before.

EDIT: Damn that's a long sentence. :D
 

Trent

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Dunkel-Boy
I agree that we should support the craft brew market. I am not sure if my comment came across as bagging out the craft brews we have here, I was referring to things like VB, New, Extra Dry, etc. If I am buying beer, I always head for Little Creatures or Squires (even though they are backed by Tooheys) or something similar, like Coopers Sparkling. Arrogant bastard is not a beer that most people like, was probably the point I was trying to get across most - if you ever get the chance to have one, if ya havent already, you will agree. "Hated by many, loved by few" is one of their catch phrases. I think the biggest thing holding back the craft brew market is the taxes and duties on it. At my local bottlo, Little Creatures is $72 a case! In the US, craft beers are alot cheaper, admittedly though still double to triple the price of mainstream swill, kinda like here. I read a thread recently that was saying somewhere in England they were encouraging micros by having a sliding scale for taxes, depending on how much you made. Basically, the more ya put out, the more expensive it becomes, allowing micros to compete with the major brands. I think thats a great idea, and I really hope the micro scene takes off, cause the more good beers there are to choose from, the better off we all are. And that was a long sentence, dont tell me ya edited it to make it shorter, did ya?
All the best
Trent
 

jgriffin

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The whole thing on taxes is a good point, and one i've been thinking of takin up with my local MP.
Australian wineries don't pay GST on "cellar door" sales - there are some limits etc, but basically it's a way to promote the industry and help the small guy. Why can't micro's get the same thing?
 

tdh

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Altbier! Grumpy's Brewhaus has a 'Munich malt driven' Altbier on tap (has had for 2 years) called the Auld Fokker. It's one of our 'regular beers' and will probably stay that way.

tdh (aka GT)
 

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