Nomograph Application

[Jye]

The recent BN waterganza finally got my ass into gear to write a nomograph application Ive been thinking about for a while. It should make it easier to work out water adjustments without going back and forth between software and redrawing the nomograph.

http://www.babbrewers.com/water
Click on the Mash pH Nomograph link.

Thanks to Chad and Bonj for testing and hosting it on BABBs :beer:

Cheers
Jye

 

[NickB]

You bloody nerd Jye....and conspiring with that long-haired nerd Bonj... Tut Tut....




.......





Actuallly, bloody good idea!

Hope to catch up with you soon mate

Cheers!

 

[Chad]

Just to add, if anyone is having issues with the page not displaying correctly or not at all, just post a screenshot and a description and we'll see what we can do to fix it. We're only amateurs at this, so we can't guarantee anything
Also, the base values that are on it are the last known Brisbane water values.

 

[Doc]

Great job Jye.
Now I have to get off my arse and dig out my old drawn ones to work out my water again

Doc

 

[jayse]

Thats cool, nice work.

 

[Fourstar]

Ive just recently started using the Nomograph to get my watyer additions down pat as i had a feeling i was doing thins incorrectly.. more importantly adding ALL of my salts for my expected final volume into the mash.. wchih would probabaly multipy the ppm reading x3~.

Question: (i hope it aint confusing). When calcuating water in beersmith. i usually do it to the Final Volume. Im assuming this is incorrect according to Jamil and JP's statements in the waterganza. ive also been adding all of my salts to the mash water = to the final post-boil volume, which i also believe is incorrect.

For example, assume im brewing a stout that will have a RA of 300ppm. when refering to the nomograph i would be adding the required salt/minerals (Ca, Mg, HCO3) to my mash water to reach the required ppm content laid out in the nomograph to reach said RA at the end of the mash. Is that correct? In other words, i only add enough salts per L to give my mash the minerals as stated by the nomograph? Or should this be the final BOIL volume PPM in the water??

I then assume after the mash and sparge with my full kettle volume i then divide the original mash water mineral content by my mash literage. This will then give me my ppm reading per L of water. I then simply calculate my 2nd salt additions for the full boil volume minus my mash water in the kettle using the same mineral reading per ppm:L used in the mash liquor?

so if my mash water was 8L @ Ca 50 Mg 10 HCO3 300

This would be a figure per L Ca 6.25, Mg 1.25, HCO3 37.5 ppm

I then * these figures by my sparge water IN the kettle (not accounting for absorption by the grain) = 22 (reaching a boil volume if 30L) which gives me my 2nd salt additions.

would that be correct?

I guess the otehr option is i can always work it out in beer smith = to 30L then calculate it down for my mash figure. i just sucks taht all the salts all aint powders as they dont really blend well. Mg SO4 is pellets, Gypsum is powder, CaCl is flakes etc. damn annoying.

Or does nayojne else have a better format?

 

[fraser_john]

Well done, I have been using Palmers spreadsheet and though I kind of understand what is going on, the visual interpretation of it is very helpful!

Given I start with rainwater each time (essentially no ions) its an easy way of me targeting what I want given the color of the beer I am brewing.

Probably hear about this page on one of Jamils shows now!

Bonj, you need to supply some stats about the international IP's that are visiting the site

John

 

[Supra-Jim]

Very tidy and useful bit of kit there Jye, nice work!

Cheers SJ

 

[Sammus]

don't wanna rain on anyones parade, but what's the go with a computerised nomograph? I understand it makes for easier calculation if you don't have a computer, but what's this do that, for example, the beersmith water chemistry calculator doesnt? (apart from draw pretty lines )

 

[AndrewQLD]

That is totally awesome Jye.
Much easier to use and understand than the spreadsheet.
Is there any chance it can be downloaded and used without having to go online?

Andrew

 

[fraser_john]

don't wanna rain on anyones parade, but what's the go with a computerised nomograph? I understand it makes for easier calculation if you don't have a computer, but what's this do that, for example, the beersmith water chemistry calculator doesnt? (apart from draw pretty lines )

I don't use Beesmith, but Promash instead and though it does have the water chemistry form, it does not indicate whether or not the RA is going to be within range of the SRM of the final beer. So its a method of visually double checking.

 

[Jye]

Thanks for the comments guys, JP also like it and called it 'slick'

hese figures by my sparge water IN the kettle (not accounting for absorption by the grain) = 22 (reaching a boil volume if 30L) which gives me my 2nd salt additions.

would that be correct?

I guess the otehr option is i can always work it out in beer smith = to 30L then calculate it down for my mash figure. i just sucks taht all the salts all aint powders as they dont really blend well. Mg SO4 is pellets, Gypsum is powder, CaCl is flakes etc. damn annoying.

Or does nayojne else have a better format?

Sounds like you have it figured out now. You really only need to add enough salts for the mash water and add them directly to the mash, the already reduced pH due to the grain will help them dissolve. If you want to add more salts for flavour (sulphate and chloride) then add them to the boil. But that gets tricky since you dont know what has already been absorbed by the grain in the mash.

I generally go on the lower side for additions and wouldnt go to the extremes of adding more to the boil. Brisbane water (the preset values in the app) is already pretty good for malty amber beers so my main adjustments are for colour and not flavour.

A generally comment, it looks like you have MgSO4 but I wouldnt use it. You will get your required Mg from the grain and too much can give you the *****

don't wanna rain on anyones parade, but what's the go with a computerised nomograph? I understand it makes for easier calculation if you don't have a computer, but what's this do that, for example, the beersmith water chemistry calculator doesnt? (apart from draw pretty lines )

As mentioned before BS doesnt give you the RA and brewing colour range.

Is there any chance it can be downloaded and used without having to go online?

Andrew

Sorry Andrew but not at the moment, maybe a bit later

 

[fraser_john]

Jye,

any chance of doing the V.Malty/Malty/Balanced/Bitter/V.Bitter indicator using the ratio of chlorides to sulphates? Would be kind of cool to have that on the same application, maybe a dial gauge or something.

John

 

[joecast]

good stuff! :icon_cheers:
any more brewing geek stuff is welcome. nice job!
joe

 

[Jye]

Bonj, you need to supply some stats about the international IP's that are visiting the site

Chad is the one who is hosting it on the BABBs site and he mentioned tonight its had about 60 hits so far. Not huge but I haven't posted this any where else. If someone is active on The BN forum feel free to post the link.

any chance of doing the V.Malty/Malty/Balanced/Bitter/V.Bitter indicator using the ratio of chlorides to sulphates? Would be kind of cool to have that on the same application, maybe a dial gauge or something.

Could be done but I dont think there are any agreed ratios and if I made them up then I would be inflicting my opinion Sort of the same reason why I dont have restriction on the level of salts or minerals, its up to the user to know what are the correct amounts and negative out comes for going over.

 

[Fourstar]

A generally comment, it looks like you have MgSO4 but I wouldnt use it. You will get your required Mg from the grain and too much can give you the *****

Cheers Jye, Mg is only an issue in high concentrations. the amounts im adding (around 20ppm) are pretty safe. you need 100+ppm to have an issue with having the trots.. in med concentrations 50ppm~ it can make the beer taste bitter-lemonish (like hot lemon rind).

My local water has <2ppm Mg so the chances of me going overboard are pretty slim. 1 Tsp give me 20ppm in 30L. Ive never used anymore than that with no ill-effects. The only Q is, how much am i extracting from the grain? 5ppm?!?! who knows.

The onyl times ive used it are in dark beers to help cancel out some of the Ca when adding HCO3 so i can get some sulfate in there.

Cheers!

 

[Bizier]

That is absolutely bloody awesome Jye (& Bonj).
I have always looked at Palmer's nomographs and thought there has to be a more intuitive way, and you have nailed it.

 

[Jye]

Hows everyone find it? any mods?

So far Ive used it for designing water for 2 brews and found it a piece of cake.

 

[MCT]

Coincidence, I am using it right now.
Love it mate, makes it so easy.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Hows everyone find it? any mods?

So far Ive used it for designing water for 2 brews and found it a piece of cake.

It looks great Jye, but my brewputer is not connected to the internet so I haven't really been able to give it a whirl, I'll load up beersmith to my office computer and run my next couple of brews through there and compare them to Palmers Residual alkalinity calculator results.
I still wish this was in downloadable format so I could have it permanently on my Brewputer B) .

I'll let you know how it goes next week.

Andrew