Mini Biab Partial

[MarkBastard]

Hello all.

I would like to make a mini BIAB partial mash recipe and also write a guide on how to do it afterwards.

What I am intending to do is convert Tony's James Squire Amber Ale extract clone recipe to a partial mash. Reason I want to use that one as a base is because:
1 - I've already made that recipe
2 - I'm going to make a commercial 'premium kit' clone as well.
3 - It's single hop
4 - Ingrediants are easy to find
5 - It's a nice drop!

So I'll be able to compare its quality more easily as I'll be more familiar with what it should taste like.

So far I've come up with the following:

INGREDIANTS:
2000g - Ale Malt (Barrett Burston) $8.00 (craft brewer)
1.5L - Pale Liquid Malt Extract $10 - $15 (various)
300g - Caramunich II (Weyermann) $1.65 (craft brewer)
30g - Chocolate Malt Pale (Bairds) $0.18 (craft brewer)
40g - Willamette Pellet 45min $7.50 (craft brewer, 90g)
20g - Willamette Pellet 5 min
12g - Safale US-05 (11.5gm) $4.90 (craft brewer)

I'm not sure on the Pale Chocolate Malt. Reading discriptions it sounds more appropriate than the 'Chocolate Malt (Bairds)' but because there's only 30g maybe that doesn't even matter?

Questions:

Is the Barrett Burston ale malt a good choice?

In Tony's recipe the speciality grains are steeped. In this case can they be mashed instead with the ale malt?

I'm going to write this up with the 19L Big W stock pot as the presumed kettle. I was thinking of starting with 12L of water in the mash, does that sound okay?

Would you imagine the 2kg of ale malt mashed for 60 minutes BIAB style in 12L of water at X degrees celcius would be equivelent to 1.5L of pale liquid malt extract thus the rest of the recipe still works including the amount and the timing of the hops?

What temperature would be best to mash at?

Is it possible to do this just with a stove, ie bring the water up to desired mash temp (or a bit higher to cater for the grain reducing the temp), then put the lid on the pot, and flame out. Check temp every 5-10 minutes and put a low flame on if needed? I know some people like to insulate at this stage but I want to make it as easy for the beginner as possible as far as technique and equipment goes.

What can be used as a mash paddle in a 19L pot with under 2.5kg of grain that people are likely to have in their house already?

I may have more questions as I go.

It may seem a bit ridiculous someone who's never done a partial before to write a guide, but I find if you write it as you go and take other peoples advice etc sometimes you explain things that an expert may take for granted and forget to explain, or make assumptions etc. Doing it this way will ensure that I myself learn about the process more in depth that I would otherwise.

It also seems like there isn't anything solid on a genuine step between kits / extracts and full scale all grain (BIAB or otherwise) where the skill and / or equipment needed isn't overwelming.

 

[MarkBastard]

If this is better off in beginner partials / all grain please move.

 

[buttersd70]

Hello all.

Is the Barrett Burston ale malt a good choice?

Yep. Good malt imo
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In Tony's recipe the speciality grains are steeped. In this case can they be mashed instead with the ale malt?

yeah, if mashinng, just chuck em in. As far as specialties are concerned, a mash is basically just an uber-effective steep.

I'm going to write this up with the 19L Big W stock pot as the presumed kettle. I was thinking of starting with 12L of water in the mash, does that sound okay?

thats about 4L/kg ish. I don't biab, so not entirely sure. But I would say it would be fine.

Would you imagine the 2kg of ale malt mashed for 60 minutes BIAB style in 12L of water at X degrees celcius would be equivelent to 1.5L of pale liquid malt extract thus the rest of the recipe still works including the amount and the timing of the hops?

the potential of liquid extract is ~80%, so the extract weight is 0.8xactual weight. the potential of grain is ~80%. the extract weight from the grain is efficiency X potential x weight, so assuming efficiency around 70%, it is 0.7*0.8*weight=1.12kg of extract (for 2kg). Compared to the 1.2kg extract available to 1.5kg of lme (which is 1.5x0.8). So pretty close. So close that it's not worth worrying about or changing, because your not 100% sure what your efficency will be anyway.

What temperature would be best to mash at?

depends on what your doing. For partials, I go slightly higher than for AG versions. (very slightly). For this one, I would say about 65C (give or take.)

Is it possible to do this just with a stove, ie bring the water up to desired mash temp (or a bit higher to cater for the grain reducing the temp), then put the lid on the pot, and flame out. Check temp every 5-10 minutes and put a low flame on if needed? I know some people like to insulate at this stage but I want to make it as easy for the beginner as possible as far as technique and equipment goes.

Absolutely. I see no problem with this.

What can be used as a mash paddle in a 19L pot with under 2.5kg of grain that people are likely to have in their house already?

Just a regular kitchen slotted spoon should be fine.

 

[kenlock]

Ok, I'll have a go at process, bearing in mind that I haven't tried this. Using North American Clone Brews it would look somethng like this:

Heat 2 gallons (7.6L) water to 164F (73C). Crush:
2000g - Ale Malt
300g - Caramunich II (Weyermann)
30g - Chocolate Malt Pale (Bairds)

Add to liquor and steep at 152F (67C) for 90 minutes. Sparge with 2.5 gallons (9.5L) water at 168F (76C). Add to runnings:
1.5L - Pale Liquid Malt Extract

Bring to a boil.

Boil 15 minutes, then add:
40g - Willamette Pellet

Boil 40 minutes, then add:
20g - Willamette Pellet

Remove from heat. Cool, then top up to 5.25 gallons (20L) with chilled, preboiled water. Cool to 68F (20C), the pitch yeast.

Mash Paddle: I use a SS potato masher.

Good Luck. I hope this helps!

 

[MarkBastard]

Cheers butters.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a slotted spoon?

And going further from there, are there any big no nos? Obviously have to use something clean. What about things made out of wood, e.g. wooden spoons? What about plastic burger flippers? What about metal burger flippers? If metal is okay I'm assuming aluminium, stainless steel, and regular steel would be fine? What about the shape of the object, how does that come into it? I've never mashed before (can you tell?).

Am I right to assume with BIAB you have a lot more water volume so mashing should be easier? I should probably look up the technique of mashing itself more, most guides seem to say 'mash at x degrees for y minutes' without giving much detail of what's actually involved in mashing. Are you just mixing the grain around and making sure it particular it doesn't clump together?

 

[MarkBastard]

Thanks kenlock, do you need to sparge with BIAB? Is it just optional? Seems like you'd need another large vessel to get the 9.5L of sparge water to the required temperature?

 

[kenlock]

Thanks kenlock, do you need to sparge with BIAB? Is it just optional? Seems like you'd need another large vessel to get the 9.5L of sparge water to the required temperature?

Just optional. I was just going by the reference book. You could steep/mash with more water then bring temperature up to 76C before removing bag.

 

[buttersd70]

Cheers butters.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a slotted spoon?

And going further from there, are there any big no nos? Obviously have to use something clean. What about things made out of wood, e.g. wooden spoons? What about plastic burger flippers? What about metal burger flippers? If metal is okay I'm assuming aluminium, stainless steel, and regular steel would be fine? What about the shape of the object, how does that come into it? I've never mashed before (can you tell?).

Am I right to assume with BIAB you have a lot more water volume so mashing should be easier? I should probably look up the technique of mashing itself more, most guides seem to say 'mash at x degrees for y minutes' without giving much detail of what's actually involved in mashing. Are you just mixing the grain around and making sure it particular it doesn't clump together?

slotted spoon is just a big kitchen spoon, but with slots cut in it. :lol: the kind of thing you use to lift veggies out of their boiling water. Spatulas would work. Metal is better than plastic, but purely because it's stronger. My mash paddle for AG is ultra-anti-bling.....its a plank of wood with holes drilled in it. :lol:

I don't know a lot about biab, but, yes, I believe its pretty much just like a normal mash, but with more water volume. From what I've read, it's somewhat similar to a 'no sparge' mash done "normally", the main difference being that instead of running the liquor off the grain, you lift the grain out of the liquor (which you can do because it's contained in the bag). Bloody clever technique, imo. Kinda makes me wish I'd heard about it before I started AG. But any biabers, feel free to correct me.

And the mixing is really just for 2 reasons....firstly, to stop clumps, and secondly to get the temperature uniform throughout the mash.

But thinking about it, mash paddles are not really all that relevant if the grains in a bag, anyway. (I think. again, biabers, feel free to correct me.)

 

[MarkBastard]

Cheers, so by the sounds of it a spatula should be okay if it can withstand the heat. And a wooden spoon would be okay in a pinch (provided it doesn't have tomato sauce stains that'll give an off flavour).

Sounds like the equipment list is going to be pretty easy. 19L pot, thermometer, bag, perhaps a hop sock (though you could rinse out the bag and reuse it too), and optionally some kitchen scales for hop measurements (though you could just count out the pellets or approximate at a pinch).

It's probably feasible to buy all needed extra equipment and ingredients for this first batch for under $50!

 

[buttersd70]

It's probably feasible to buy all needed extra equipment and ingredients for this first batch for under $50!

Should be....my AG equipment wasn't a lot more than that.
55L esky - free (struck lucky with that)
18L urn - free (struck very lucky with that....also came with 60 grolsche bottles, and 30 pickaxe bottles)
mash paddle - free (as said, plank with holes in it.)
stainless braid...about 10,20 ish $
18L pot at a cheap shop - $15
NC cubes, already had for cold conditioning
fermenters...already had.
sundry hoses, taps, etc...$30 ish
PITA because need to do a split boil....granted. But better than nothing.


Bling doesn't make good beer. . Good recipe formulation, and attention to detail makes good beer.

Edit: which is why in the "is it worth it" threads that are so abundant, my thoughts on it is ....Hell yeah. Some estimiate the cost of setup at better than a grand....not needed at all, imo. It all comes down to beeing canny.

 

[MarkBastard]

Should be....my AG equipment wasn't a lot more than that.
55L esky - free (struck lucky with that)
18L urn - free (struck very lucky with that....also came with 60 grolsche bottles, and 30 pickaxe bottles)
mash paddle - free (as said, plank with holes in it.)
stainless braid...about 10,20 ish $
18L pot at a cheap shop - $15
NC cubes, already had for cold conditioning
fermenters...already had.
sundry hoses, taps, etc...$30 ish
PITA because need to do a split boil....granted. But better than nothing.


Bling doesn't make good beer. . Good recipe formulation, and attention to detail makes good beer.

Edit: which is why in the "is it worth it" threads that are so abundant, my thoughts on it is ....Hell yeah. Some estimiate the cost of setup at better than a grand....not needed at all, imo. It all comes down to beeing canny.

Understood, and I know you know what I was getting at, but yeah what I meant is that under $50, brand new off the shelf gear you can get from the local Big W or online from craft brewer etc. No need to 'get lucky' or get the weekend trader every saturday etc. Something that is accessible to almost everyone basically. I reckon most people wouldn't shy away from $50 including a batch of beer that'll crap all over the kit beers they've previously done (target audiance).

Take a photo of your mash paddle btw!

 

[buttersd70]

Understood, and I know you know what I was getting at, but yeah what I meant is that under $50, brand new off the shelf gear you can get from the local Big W or online from craft brewer etc. No need to 'get lucky' or get the weekend trader every saturday etc. Something that is accessible to almost everyone basically. I reckon most people wouldn't shy away from $50 including a batch of beer that'll crap all over the kit beers they've previously done (target audiance).

Take a photo of your mash paddle btw!

Yeah, I was pointing out the extreme case. I knew what you meant.
Paddle is out on loan atm, but must remember to post a pic in the 'show us your mash paddle' thread when I get it back. :lol:

 

[MarkBastard]

Okay, I'd like some feedback on temperatures during the mash. Wouldn't mind some varying views and perhaps what difference it would make?

Butters has said 65 degrees (for entire mash)
kenlock has said to bring up to 76 degrees at the end.

Wouldn't mind knowing the benefits etc, particularly with the malt being used.

If varying temperatures are needed, what are the benefits, and what temperatures at how many minutes? We should make a schedule similar to hop additions.

 

[buttersd70]

Mark,
I agree with Kenloc about bringing it up at the end. Raising the temp after conversion has finished allows for the sugars to more easily disolve off the grain and into slolution, when the grain is removed. (the only reason I didn't mention raising at the end, is cos I forgot to. )

The mash itself is done at a temperature between 60 and 70. Lower temperature gives a more fermentable wort. Higher temperature gives a more dextrinous wort. Mashing between 63-66 gives a combination of the two.....enough that is easily fermentable, but enough that is not (to promote body and residual sweetness.). The actual temperature will depend on the beer being made, and what balance you want between fermentability and body. The mash is usually around about 1 hour.

But in either case, it is best to raise the temperature to 76-78, to denature the enzyme activity, and make the sugars more easily disolved into the runnings.

 

[MarkBastard]

Awesome butters, very well explained! Makes perfect sense.

Would you suggest in this instance then that the water should be heated to 70 degrees, then the room temperature grain should put it down to 66 degrees (according to beersmith anyway). That being the higher of your recommended 66-63 degrees. Then the lid goes on, and hopefully it won't lose more than 3 degrees in the next 10 minutes, then check the temp and always try to keep it 63 degrees or above. If it goes lower than 63, heat back up to 66.

Then after an hour (because I've read it's best to mash minimum 60 minutes but some recommend 90 minutes), the temperature should be raised to 76-78 degrees and once it hits that point, pull the bag out? Or should it be kept at that point for 5-10 minutes? Then you could basically squeeze the bag to get remaining liquid out, and keep it heating up to the boil.

Hopefully that's kosher, because it means you get the sparge without any extra effort. The brewer would have increased the temperate to bring the wort to the boil anyway, this way the brewer simply waits until it hits 76-78 degrees before pulling the bag out.

When I write the guide out I'll have to paraphrase that post of yours

 

[buttersd70]

Would you suggest in this instance then that the water should be heated to 70 degrees, then the room temperature grain should put it down to 66 degrees (according to beersmith anyway). That being the higher of your recommended 66-63 degrees. Then the lid goes on, and hopefully it won't lose more than 3 degrees in the next 10 minutes, then check the temp and always try to keep it 63 degrees or above. If it goes lower than 63, heat back up to 66.

Then after an hour (because I've read it's best to mash minimum 60 minutes but some recommend 90 minutes), the temperature should be raised to 76-78 degrees and once it hits that point, pull the bag out? Or should it be kept at that point for 5-10 minutes? Then you could basically squeeze the bag to get remaining liquid out, and keep it heating up to the boil.

Hopefully that's kosher, because it means you get the sparge without any extra effort. The brewer would have increased the temperate to bring the wort to the boil anyway, this way the brewer simply waits until it hits 76-78 degrees before pulling the bag out.

When I write the guide out I'll have to paraphrase that post of yours

Aim for a temp, and aim to hold it at that temp. The less fluctuation you can get, the better. But at the end of the day, if it drops a little, it's not a disaster....if it's something you can control, then do so. If it's something that is out of your control, then don't stress about it. Add the grain to the water when it is at the strike temp that has been calculated...then make any fine adjustment once the temperature has stabalised.

Once the mash id done, then raise to the 76-78...at that point, I would hold it for a couple of minutes to allow the temp to stabalise. As for pulling the grain straight out or not, have a look at the biab threads....theres something that some of the guys do that is referred to (i think) as a dunk sparge...as far as I know, its just dunking the bag in and out like a teabag, to get more sugars out. But as I said, I don't biab, so I'm not overly familiar with it. Have a read through the biab threads and read PP's biab guide.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Mark.. do you by any chance have the book, Brewing Classic Styles ??

There is a perfectly good guide to stovetop partial mashing in there, pretty much exactly what you are planning. If you don't have it and you are interested, shoot me a PM and I will scan the few relevant pages for you. Its pretty much just BIAB at normal liquor to grist ratios. Which is cool if you already have two pots. You would need another 9-10ish litre pot in addition to your 19L one. But a lot of kitchens will have a pasta pot that big in them.

You mash in the small pot and dunk sparge in the big one.

You are on the right track anyway.. just a couple of little things.

- It's my opinion that you are far better off insulating your mash vessel than trying to maintain the heat with a "low flame" Its only a 20L pot, get it to the right temp and wrap it up in a couple of towels... Then check it every now and again and add heat if necessary.

- no need to mash for 90min

- Definitely heat it up to 78 at the end

Anyway.. for your purposes, I think the Brewing Classic Styles method will work out better for you. Its still very similar to BIAB, but its designed for the smaller amounts. BIAB is a technique designed to let people brew full scale batches in just one vessel. To do this it makes some compromises that you don't have to make on such a small scale. And some of the things that help it to work despite the compromises.. aren't there on the small scale.

Kenlock pretty much nailed it in his description actually. Do it like he says and you wont go far wrong.

- if you are mashing with only 4L of water for every kg of grain... if you don't do a sparge of some description, you will get woeful efficiency. BIAB gets away without sparging, at least partly because of the high ratio of water. So...

If you aren't going to sparge because you haven't got another 10L pot.... then you should put as much volume in the big pot as you possibly can right at the start. For your 19L pot and 2.3kg of grain... you should be able to use about 16L in there with your grain, and still have a bit of room to avoid spills. That more or less makes it a "standard" BIAB (if there is such a thing) and you should be able to get 70% efficiency or better from your grain. So it s a 13 or so litre AG BIAB... and you are just stretching it out to a full batch with extract. Should work great.


Let me know if you want those pages scanned so you can see that option.

Thirsty

 

[MarkBastard]

Hello Thirsty, yes please scan if possible. The more 'research' I do the better.

I'm going to give BIAB a go though, even if it doesn't work out at least I've done an experiment. I'll take notes and pictures as I go and only write up a guide if I think it's worth doing. If it does work out well I'll probably try a few different recipes as well just to be sure.

 

[MarkBastard]

Also if I wanted to test the insulation qualities of this pot can I do it with plain water, or should I include some sugar to more accurately match what would be in a wort? I'm thinking I should heat up the pot with water (or water and sugar) and then measure at 5 minute intervals what the temperature does. Start at 66 degrees and just plot the temperature changes over half an hour with no flame.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'll scan em in and e-mail them to you. PM me your e-mail address.

I've done probably 12-15 mini batch BIAB brews (8-12L) and you can do that temp plotting if you want (just plain water will be OK), you will lose a little less when there is grain in the mix, but it'll be fine anyway.

In my 15L thin walled stainless pot - wrapped up in a couple of towels, I am losing maybe 3-4 degrees over an hour. If I am feeling super keen.. I might unwrap the towels and adjust it back to temp after 15 minutes... but only if I am feeling super keen. Thats it, no more after that until I want to go up to 78.

Your mini BIAB will work out alright.. no problems at all. You can more or less expect the grain part of the brew to proceed exactly as a normal BIAB would.. just littler. At the end of the mash... you either have about 14.5L of AG wort... or the grain half of a partial mash.

I'll get you those scans by tomorrow morning.

TB

oh and I forgot my mantra for new BIAB brewers..... Stir stir stir. Continuously stir whenever you have flame on and the bag is in the pot... stir stir stir before you take a temperature... I stir while I am taking my temperatures. Stir stir stir before you pull the bag out. And its OK to give the bag a bit of a squeeze... don't listen to em when they tell you it isn't. Don't wring it out like the washing... but a nice firm squeeze will do wonders for your efficiency.