Mash Schematic (concept)

[Gulf Brewery]

Since we are being technical - does anyone have info on the electrical setup of a typical microbrewery? Being an electrical engineer I'm quite interested to see what size transformers etc are required, what voltage the brewing equipment runs at, power ratings, consumption, etc.

Hi foles

This is what we have for a 12hl system.

• 4 x 12 kW elements in the kettle (bring to boil on 4, maintain it on 2)
• 2 x 12 kW in the HLT
• Coolroom compressor which is 10HP
• Air compressor for the bottling line which is 10HP
• Icebank compressor which is a much smaller unit than the coolroom one.

All that stuff is run from a standard 3 phase feed which is 100A per phase with a current limiter on it. There are a few temperature controllers / sensors running from 12v AC and I think all the process control stuff in the bottling line is 12 or 24v DC.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[technocat]

Interesting stuff.

Since we are being technical - does anyone have info on the electrical setup of a typical microbrewery? Being an electrical engineer I'm quite interested to see what size transformers etc are required, what voltage the brewing equipment runs at, power ratings, consumption, etc.

A lot more interesting than what I'm looking at now - much rather be supplying power to a brew kettle, than a conveyor carrying iron ore!!

Not sure what size brewery you are going for but if you are building one for your own use and a bit of stock for socialising I would say a 60 - 100 Litre setup would be more than adequate. I am building at the moment a 60L brew tree and electrical requirements are

240V @ 15A: heater element and stand alone heat controller
24VAC @ 2A Solenoid valves
12VDC @ 2A Regulated supply for electronics and relays
5VDC @ 1A Microprocessor timing circuits.

HLT is gas assisted for fast temperature rise and the boiler gas only.

The tranformer I used was a 2165 multi tap capable of giving you 6A at 9V and 2.5V at 24V You could use switchmode but I kept it simple mainly because I bought a heap of these transformers cheap off a pinball machine manufacturer.


View attachment 25370


I am building this gear with the idea of adding a HERMS unit further down the track using a small heating element in a separate container. A diagram of this type of gear has been posted many times elsewhere on this site PM me if you can't find it. If you are an Elecrical Engineer you will have no trouble cobbling up the electronics to drive this system as there is plenty of, off the shelf DIY around to fit the bill. If you want to roll your own like I did I used copper laminate matrix board following a schematic that I had drawn out. As making up a working circuit on Matrix board requires quite a bit of mental dexterity, a PCB would be easier and I used to make them in my early years but I have got a bit lazy in my latter years.


Cheers

 

[fraser_john]

Wilbier,

fascinating thoughts. Your new design would need the mash to sit in the lauter tun whilst you clean the mash/kettle unit, may drop a bit in temp in the mean time which "could" reactivate the enzymes. Something to think about!

Your initial design was quite good as well!

I am guessing as a plumber(not to mention your fluid design/layout job!!!!) you would have access to all the bits and pieces you would need to assemble such a beast.

KISS can be a good idea to start, however, you can jump in if you are ready to accept issues and have to work around them. I went straight from kits/extracts to all grain and my RIMS setup is in its fifth incarnation, but all the pieces are still original and nothing has changed, though I admit that I am moving to a PID controlled system rather than my own software with DS18S20 digital thermometers. Not a major design change, just a processor change.

Remember amongst all this is you want it easy to clean and easy to sanitise when done with the brew day, so all wort paths must be free draining, including pumps, so you can flush it all and let it dry.

John

 

[WilBier]

Wilbier,

fascinating thoughts. Your new design would need the mash to sit in the lauter tun whilst you clean the mash/kettle unit, may drop a bit in temp in the mean time which "could" reactivate the enzymes. Something to think about!

Your initial design was quite good as well!

I am guessing as a plumber(not to mention your fluid design/layout job!!!!) you would have access to all the bits and pieces you would need to assemble such a beast.

KISS can be a good idea to start, however, you can jump in if you are ready to accept issues and have to work around them. I went straight from kits/extracts to all grain and my RIMS setup is in its fifth incarnation, but all the pieces are still original and nothing has changed, though I admit that I am moving to a PID controlled system rather than my own software with DS18S20 digital thermometers. Not a major design change, just a processor change.

Remember amongst all this is you want it easy to clean and easy to sanitise when done with the brew day, so all wort paths must be free draining, including pumps, so you can flush it all and let it dry.

John

Thanks for your thoughts John.
That's a very good point about losing temperature.
This is another thing I thought of:
If I open the valve to dump the wort/grain into the lauter tun, it obviously won't all go down. There will be plenty of grain left in the mash tun. I might have to pumpthe (strained) liquid straight back to the mash tun to wash the remainder if the grain down. Do you think I could do this via a heat exchanger to account for the heat loss? Or would you just use some new hot water?
Or do you think it might be easier so insulate the lauter tun?

Pretty motivating time planning the AG setup!

5th generation of the brewery that's encouraging - hhehee I meant knowing that it's not just gathering dust. It must be your pride and joy.
Look forward to seeing it in action!

Cheers,
Wilbier

 

[WilBier]

I have put together a 2D drawing of the 2 vessels. I have found a nice piece of 316 stainless tube that is 700mm diameter, and 800mm long. So by cutting it in half, I get 2 x 150litre vessels - perfect! I'm just gonna weld on a piece of 6mm stainless for the bases (2 pieces because I have to do it out of off-cuts.

The basic idea is a before - strike and mash in the mash tun and do full mash then mash out and dump into the lauter tun. Use the transfer line to wash out the remaining grains - any idea on this - will this work? Comments would be great.
Plenty of room under the mesh screen to separate liquid and grain. Wash out mash tun in prep for the boil. Pump wort back to kettle. Sparge in the lauter tun. Pump remaining liquid to kettle and boil.
Can anyone comment on the placement of the thermowells? I was planning on inserting to DS18's into these wells and at this stage just monitor temps - automation will come later.

View attachment 2_vessels.pdf

Cheers,

Wilbier

 

[MHB]

Couple of points that might help



The space under the false bottom is called dead space for pretty good reasons; it should be kept as small as practical, say 20-25 mm.



As you are cutting the Pipe to make the two tanks, you could cut as a slight angle; say 25 mm across the diameter, creating a natural drain point. Sloping floor tanks are fairly common and they are much easier to clean than flat bottom tanks.



Generally the Kettle is larger than the Mash Tun, from memory Kunze says 9:6, this actually increases the capacity of your brewhouse.



If you are mashing in the top tank and you want to recirculate through a HERMS circuit, you will need a false bottom in the Mash/Kettle as well as in the Mash Separating Tank



There is a very common old German brewhouse configuration, (the Malt Shovel Brewhouse in Camperdown is set up this way) the Mash/Kettles are down low, the Lauter Tank is up high, the heavy mash is pumped up to the lauter, recirculated until bright, then gravity does the return to the kettle.



I dont think a March Pump would be up to that job.



Oh and reinforce the false bottom very well, 20-25 kg of grist and water dropping onto it from a meter can turn it concave very easily (wedge wire would be a good call) definitely underlet the floor before you start the transfer of the mash.



Looks like you design is evolving nicely



MHB

 

[WilBier]

Thanks MHB,

Heaps of good points there.
I have modified the drawing (changes are cheap and easy at this stage) View attachment 2_vessels.pdf
I have put in the sloping base - top idea! Yeah - still becomes one cut!
Done away with the HERMS on the mash tun - can't recall why I wanted to put that in there.
I have brought the mesh base down nice and low to avoid dead space.
So now I can lauter with the liquid in contact with the grain.
You're right, it was just a mash separating tank.
Getting closer to doing the chop and starting job

Thanks again - what do you think now?
Wilbier

Edit: Youre right, I will need something larger than an 809 march pump. Been talking to Karl (PP), waiting to hear back.

 

[MHB]

Actually I am liking it more and more

So 1 more question
What's the advantage of mashing in the Kettle?
Why not mash in the Mash Tun, it saves you a big expensive 50mm valve and a hot water in on the kettle and as you would only need to pump liquid, a nice little inexpensive March pump would be just fine.

Oh and a nit pick, where you have Lauter on your drawing I think you mean Recirculation

I love simplicity in systems.

MHB

 

[WilBier]

Actually I am liking it more and more

So 1 more question
What's the advantage of mashing in the Kettle?
Why not mash in the Mash Tun, it saves you a big expensive 50mm valve and a hot water in on the kettle and as you would only need to pump liquid, a nice little inexpensive March pump would be just fine.

Oh and a nit pick, where you have Lauter on your drawing I think you mean Recirculation

I love simplicity in systems.

MHB

This is getting fun. I ask the question: what's the advantage of lautering in the mash tun? I would think, mash tun for mashing, lauter tun for separating grain and wort. Sparge over here. Then return to the kettle to boil. Any other people done it this way?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Rather a lot of commercial systems use a separate mash and lauter tun. It increases throughput of the system when you want to do multiple mashes in one day.
This is firstly because you empty vessels faster and can therefore fill them sooner in turn - and also because you can design them specifically for their job rather than compromise.


Mash/Lauter tuns give somewhat "higher quality"wort by the traditional definition. Ie: its clearer, has less solids, protien and lipid content - than do Lauter tuns. They do not require a transfer of the mash.

Straight Lauter tuns are basically about speed - they can be made lower and wider with a greater surface area which increases the rate at which wort can be rinsed and drained. plus of course, they free up your mash tun to be either mashed in again, or used as a kettle. Commercial lautering in a mash tun might take as long as 3-4 hours.. lauter tuns usually run-off in less than 2.

Your design is starting to look really nice - but MHB has a point. If you don't need the speed or the room to mash another batch then you might be making your life harder than it needs to be.

Why not the separate lauter tun -

Big expensive valve
Need to rinse the mash out of the mash/kettle into the lauter tun
Need to add either a lauter grant or a specialised pump (see later)

Why yes to the separate lauter tun -

Your mash/kettle is able to give you temperature control without the need for infusion/recirculation or insulation
You can stir or install a stirrer which will give you higher efficiency

If you do go with the separate lauter tun. Then I think you will need a mash stirrer. And you will need to mash fairly thin at an L:G of 3:1 or more. The loose mash and stirrer will keep your mash as a slurry, which means it will drain out the valve instead of just sitting there. I would also consider hinging the tun, so it can be tipped up towards the drain. Giving you 2 x 45 (roughly) angles rather than one vertical wall and a mild slope.

Or make the slope on the mash/kettle tun much steeper. It wont hurt and might eve help to have the kettle bottom sloped (increased boil agitation in asymmetrical kettles) and that will help with mash transfer. I still think you will need a stirrer or to stir by hand while draining. a hose or spray ball to rinse the last of it out.

Actually, go with the hinge - you will want both vessels able to be tilted all the way over for emptying and cleaning anyway. So build the ability to tip em over and dump em out into the design. At 150L they are going to be to big to manhandle like you would a 50L pot.

In your current design - I don't actually think you need a bigger pump than a March (unless you want speed) because in reality, you mash transfer is being done by gravity. To be able to run-off from your lauter tun under gravity (the best option) you simply need a lauter grant. small vessel that the lauter tun runs off into under gravity, with a float switch installed to pump it out when it fills.

I wouldn't go the other way with the mash/kettle lower than the lauter tun - the need to pump actual mash is going to be a large cost. Not only does your pump have to be "bigger" it has to be specialised one that can handle solids - and preferably one like a diaphragm pump which will not mash up the grain and wreck the husks on the way through. You need husk integrity for your lauter. Those pumps are expensive.

 

[fraser_john]

I'd also be concerned about the transfer pipe from the mash tun/kettle. How is work in that pipe going to be fully boiled?

John

 

[WilBier]

I'd also be concerned about the transfer pipe from the mash tun/kettle. How is work in that pipe going to be fully boiled?

John

Actually that is a bit of a drafting mistake. the flange is meant to be only 50mm away from the edge of the vessel. I need to be able to bolt through the valve and still get the nuts on behind the backing ring. I will update again soon. What do you think of boiling the wort in the kettle, and while that is boiling, clean out the lauter tun and remove the mesh. At the end of the boil, I could dump the kettle contents back down into the lauter tun and use that as a whirlpool vessel? Maybe drain the whole kettle nice and fast on a tangential inlet, get it moving, then stir it form a nice whirlpool? Would the whirlpool work with a 25mmm sloping base across the 700mm diameter vessel?

Wilbier

 

[fraser_john]

I don't know squat about fluid dynamics, but I can imagine a sloping base will disrupt a whirlpool from performing effectively. If it did work, your trub would settle at the lowest point where your drain is and you would end up dumping that trub into your fermenter, unless you had another drain point at the high end of the sloping base.....

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I rekon your whirpool cone might end up a little smeared ... but 25mm across 700mm is not exactly steep. Whirpool vessels are actually often designed with sloped bottoms (around 1-2%) anyway, so you are not massively out of that range. You might be able to solve the smearing problem with a whirlpool ring.

A ring a couple of cm or so in height that is about 75% the diameter of your vessel. This sits in the middle and the trub cone collects in it, allowing you to draw clear wort from the sides of the vessel. Its sort of like a reverse pick up tube allowing you to drain from the bottom while still containing the trub cone and not creating currents to break it up. The ring also has an effect on the formation of the cone, improving it by breaking up eddy currents that tend to disturb the cone as the whirpool slows down.

In your case, perhaps you could slope the ring in the opposite direction to the base. So if it were 75% of the diameter of the tun (525mm) it would be 20mm on one side increasing to 0.75x 25mm + 20 mm = 38.75 on the other. Leaving the top edge horizontal. But I suspect just a "normal" ring plonked on the bottom, angle and all, would be fine.

The ring could be removable - it would be out of the tun during the lauter - you remove the grain and plates and drop in the ring before transferring back into the tun.

Still, the same could be done in the kettle - the mash transferred to the lauter tun - kettle rinsed and whirpool ring dropped in. Wort boiled and whirlpooled in place. One less transfer required and you remain in the "higher" vessel giving you the ability to cast relatively break free wort directly to chillers (or fermenters if immersion chilling) via gravity. One reason to avoid a pump transfer if possible is that the more pumping you do, the more sheer forces are exerted on the break flocs - smashing them up and reducing their size and therefore the rate at which they settle.

If you do pump the pre-whirpool wort, either for transfer or to establish the whirlpool itself - dont go too hard and at all cost avoid cavitation. Kunze says that the infeed speed of the whirpool should never exceed 5m/s and that less is usually enough, which is good because a March pump isn't going to give you 5m/s through a half inch fitting anyway. Whirpools dont have to spin fast to work well. The ring will help with the cone formation and your whirpool rest should be 20-40 mins (closer to 20 with a ring) although if you whirpool in the kettle, you will lose some time while you wait for convection currents from residual heat from burners, the kettle bottom and general movement of the wort to settle down some before you can really do your whirlpool.

I will be installing a ring in my new kettle - it will more or less just be a circle of copper tube. I am hoping that in my new flat bottomed kettle, with the ring - I should be able to drain almost to the very bottom while still avoiding most of the trub.

TB

 

[WilBier]

I am considering mechanical stirrer for the mash.

Can someone suggest what type of blade or impeller would be ideal / appropriate for a mechanical stirrer?

A big sweeping arm at the bottom of the mash?
2 sweeping arms?
What shaped arms?
An arm above the mash and fingers down into the mash?

I am interested to hear some ideas.

Wilbier

 

[fraser_john]

You can check my design out when you come over to my place this w/e. From memory I have some pics on my website too, just waiting till I find someone that can do the final aluminium welding to finish it

John