Malty Sweet English Ale - How Do I Get That Flavor?

[thesunsettree]

quote - That's why mash high but long (eg 90 minutes) or alternatively the little low end sacch rest followed by a higher one. Both work for me.

Hi manticle,

with this in mind, can step mashes work in reverse? ie my system doesnt easily allow for ramping up... so can i start mashing mashing at say 67deg and purposefully attempt for it to finish at 60deg (i guess not lagging the tun, cooling in some way, dunno havnt thought that far ahead ). just thinking out loud i guess.

cheers
matt

 

[speedie]

Caramel could be added with the hot rock method or a red hot poker

Or as stated earlier remove some and boil it down

 

[manticle]

quote - That's why mash high but long (eg 90 minutes) or alternatively the little low end sacch rest followed by a higher one. Both work for me.

Hi manticle,

with this in mind, can step mashes work in reverse? ie my system doesnt easily allow for ramping up... so can i start mashing mashing at say 67deg and purposefully attempt for it to finish at 60deg (i guess not lagging the tun, cooling in some way, dunno havnt thought that far ahead ). just thinking out loud i guess.

cheers
matt

First I can't answer yes or no. I doubt it would be better or even advisable but I can't say for sure.

The reason you step mash low and move higher is because certain enzymes are activated by certain temperature ranges. They may get deactivated or even denatured when they go above that range. Temperature and time will affect how the enzymes behave and what they produce and even when not denatured, higher temps may affect their ability to function.

I'm not sure I fully understand and certainly not enough to explain the exact action of the enzymes and how they work. There's some interesting stuff here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion which suggests to me that what you are thinking might theoretically work but that the higher and longer a temperature is the less chance there is for the beta amylase to convert starch to more fermentable sugars so you are more likely to end up with dextrinous 'chewy' beer.

More stuff on temp and time here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...nfusion_mashing plus palmer has a good discussiona bout enzymes at different temps.

You can step mash in a single infusion type system (eg esky) in a number of ways - including hot water additions. decoctions and good quality immersion heaters. Stovetop BIAB etc can probably do it easy enough too- there are biabers here who step regularly who could give better advice than I.

I think cooling could be harder than heating.

 

[thesunsettree]

First I can't answer yes or no. I doubt it would be better or even advisable but I can't say for sure.

The reason you step mash low and move higher is because certain enzymes are activated by certain temperature ranges. They may get deactivated or even denatured when they go above that range. Temperature and time will affect how the enzymes behave and what they produce and even when not denatured, higher temps may affect their ability to function.

I'm not sure I fully understand and certainly not enough to explain the exact action of the enzymes and how they work. There's some interesting stuff here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion which suggests to me that what you are thinking might theoretically work but that the higher and longer a temperature is the less chance there is for the beta amylase to convert starch to more fermentable sugars so you are more likely to end up with dextrinous 'chewy' beer.

More stuff on temp and time here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...nfusion_mashing plus palmer has a good discussiona bout enzymes at different temps.

You can step mash in a single infusion type system (eg esky) in a number of ways - including hot water additions. decoctions and good quality immersion heaters. Stovetop BIAB etc can probably do it easy enough too- there are biabers here who step regularly who could give better advice than I.

I think cooling could be harder than heating.

thanks mate,

i kinda thought as much otherwise everyone would be doing it . i have favourited your link and will digest it later as im rooted and need to sleep. thanks for the links

cheers
matt

 

[bear09]

I did a heap of reading, searching and talking to some great English style home brewers in formulation of this one below, based on Timothy Taylor's Landlord. TT use 100% Golden Promise (although speculation continues that it gets kilned exactly to their specs ) They caramelise first runnings to get that beautiful crystal profile.

I have it on good authority about their hop additions linky which i've employed here




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far out everyone - seriously bloody thanks heaps. There have been some ripper responses on this thread - so far its been really helpful and I shall definetly follow up with my results upon my next attempt.

Cheers.

Keep em vcoming if you have them!

 

[argon]

Just shows mate, how much everyone loves a good English ale. It's funny when I mention to other Aussie that the English make some great beers and it's best to drink them a little warmer and a less carbonated.

Good luck with it mate. Also have a listen to the brewing network and their series talking to Fullers about the esb and London pride. Some really good info about English character beers.

I have 2 kegs conditioning now of some English beers and it's taking all my strength not to tap them and get into them asap, before they're ready.

 

[mje1980]

Doesnt partigyle brewing help add that big yummy malt flavour??

I prefer the caramunich malts instead of other crystals, i find them more aromatic, and a lot smoother, just my opinion. And MO, for sure adds something yummy. Like has been said, liquid yeast is a big factor. I've tried many of the UK ale strains, and they're all good IMHO, though burton has been my fave, and im now using 1968, which seems to be a cracker also.

Might be sacrelege ( sp? ), but 10% munich can boost your malt profile too.

Either way, its such a broad style, you can make many different bitters/pales and im sure you'll have fun trying different ingredients etc.

Cheers

 

[RdeVjun]

There's dozens of specialty malts but also decoction and as mentioned, wort caramelisation- a longer boil can help with that too, I boil my UK Bitters for at least 90 minutes, often 2 hours but I also farted around with caramelising wort for a while, it just wasn't quite as reliable as I'd hoped but certainly still worth a whirl.

 

[manticle]

One thing I'd like to point out that is just semantics and slightly OT, but caramelisation requires temps higher than 100c to achieve, which would require cooking all the water out of the wort first. So by boiling down the first runnings you're more likely just producing more maillard reactions instead.

Easier to say 'caramelisation' than 'producing extra maillard reactions separately from the boil'.

 

[Fourstar]

Keeping it simple really helps in most instances. Here is my recommendations in order.

- BRITISH CRYSTAL - Bairds Medium Crystal is a good one to start with (8-10%). I cant wait to make an ice cream with it. :icon_drool2:
- British Hops, EKG all the way is a great starter. ekg+challenger is even better.
- A yeast that leaves a malty finish is a must. Wyeast 1968. Fullers ESB yeast is a good start.
- British base malts like maris otter are a great 'malty' base malts, it really helps with that character. if you cannot get ahold of imported bases or cannot afford it, simple JW Ale with 5% biscuit malt adds enough interest to the base.
- As BribieG will probabaly attest, a touch of da sugaz (5%) to lighten the body with all that crystal.
- I typically mash at 67-68 deg for all my bitters.

a good recipe example thats simple and highly effective.

OG 1.050
IBU 35
Mash temp: 67 deg

87% Maris Otter
8% Medium Crystal
5% Sucrose

25 IBU EKG @ 60 min
10 IBU EKG @ 20 min
1g/L final voume flameout addition EKG

Wyeast 1968 - London ESB yeast

 

[Brauhaus007]

Dont beleive the hype you can get great results using dry yeast. Its just so much earsier as well.

 

[bear09]

Keeping it simple really helps in most instances. Here is my recommendations in order.

- BRITISH CRYSTAL - Bairds Medium Crystal is a good one to start with (8-10%). I cant wait to make an ice cream with it. :icon_drool2:
- British Hops, EKG all the way is a great starter. ekg+challenger is even better.
- A yeast that leaves a malty finish is a must. Wyeast 1968. Fullers ESB yeast is a good start.
- British base malts like maris otter are a great 'malty' base malts, it really helps with that character. if you cannot get ahold of imported bases or cannot afford it, simple JW Ale with 5% biscuit malt adds enough interest to the base.

Hey fourstar - you're a gun mate. I am going to base my next one off this as well.

Cheers to you and all the others that have made a really good input to this post. I will certainly follow up.

 

[bear09]

Dont beleive the hype you can get great results using dry yeast. Its just so much earsier as well.

Did you mean to say 'can' or 'cant'??

The second sentance contradicts the first....

 

[MarkBastard]

Dont beleive the hype you can get great results using dry yeast. Its just so much earsier as well.

+1, Nottingham goes well.

 

[Brauhaus007]

Not at all dried yeast is easy and you can get good results with it. Also you may want to look at adding some salts & minerals to Burtonise your mash liquor. This will have an effect as well.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Keeping it simple really helps in most instances. Here is my recommendations in order.

- BRITISH CRYSTAL - Bairds Medium Crystal is a good one to start with (8-10%). I cant wait to make an ice cream with it. :icon_drool2:
- British Hops, EKG all the way is a great starter. ekg+challenger is even better.
- A yeast that leaves a malty finish is a must. Wyeast 1968. Fullers ESB yeast is a good start.
- British base malts like maris otter are a great 'malty' base malts, it really helps with that character. if you cannot get ahold of imported bases or cannot afford it, simple JW Ale with 5% biscuit malt adds enough interest to the base.
- As BribieG will probabaly attest, a touch of da sugaz (5%) to lighten the body with all that crystal.
- I typically mash at 67-68 deg for all my bitters.

a good recipe example thats simple and highly effective.

OG 1.050
IBU 35
Mash temp: 67 deg

87% Maris Otter
8% Medium Crystal
5% Sucrose

25 IBU EKG @ 60 min
10 IBU EKG @ 20 min
1g/L final voume flameout addition EKG

Wyeast 1968 - London ESB yeast

Nice lookin recipe 4*
I've just moved into using base malts and doing a partial mash and was wondering if I should use any sucrose to counter around 1kg of LDME in a 23 litre batch.
My question is would mashing at a lower temp give the same result as adding sucrose?
I didn't add any sugar in my first attempt, mashed at around 65-66 degrees C for an hour and my FG ended up around 1.011 but I only used 100g of dark crystal with 2.6kg GP and 200g of Brown Malt.

Also, have you or has anyone else for that matter, had any experience with dry-hopping EKG without a flameout addition?

 

[Fourstar]

Nice lookin recipe 4*
I've just moved into using base malts and doing a partial mash and was wondering if I should use any sucrose to counter around 1kg of LDME in a 23 litre batch.
My question is would mashing at a lower temp give the same result as adding sucrose?
I didn't add any sugar in my first attempt, mashed at around 65-66 degrees C for an hour and my FG ended up around 1.011 but I only used 100g of dark crystal with 2.6kg GP and 200g of Brown Malt.

Also, have you or has anyone else for that matter, had any experience with dry-hopping EKG without a flameout addition?

Adjusting mash temp for sake of not adding sugar. yes it can work but results ARE different. you're adding sucrose as a form of fermentatables as well as 'lightning' the malt flavour & dextrin %. in other words, same ABV~ with a lightened malt profile. Thats whats im trying to achieve by adding sucrose. i find it helps lighten the cloying characters from beers with v/high % of crystal as well. Big body with alot of crystal isnt something i really like in a bitter. a lighter body with a buttload of crystal = tasty.

Using EKG as a dryhop over flameout, i'd do both personally. Also, IMO only dry hop with plugs if you can get them. one plug per batch. the falvour profile is soo much softer/rounded with a plug. Personally i'll never dry hop english beers with pellets anymore, purely becuase i known how good it is using plugs. :icon_drool2: flamout is more than enough and is suitable for the style.

 

[drsmurto]

I tend to take a simple approach to bitters.

90% maris otter
5% crystal (a mix of medium and dark english crystal - bairds/simpsons)
5% torrified wheat

English hops (EKG, Fuggles, Challenger, Northdown, Target) although Styrian Goldings also make an appearance
English yeast (liquid my preference)

Mash at 65-67C depending on how i feel.

 

[geoffi]

Not having MO at the mo, I recently made a bitter using JW trad, Vienna, dark crystal and a small amount of brown malt. I think it's pretty close to the 'real thing'.

 

[luckyeatwell]

Listening to the "Jamil / CYBI Show - ESB and London Pride Rebrew" at the moment - Their discussion seems to focus on the difference in caramel malt presence to be found in the pasterusied bottled (export) versions when compared to the Fullers cask-condition / unpasteurised variant of the same beer (which they sourced direct from a visit to the brewery).

The conclusion that they were drawing was that when brewing these type of beers to match a favourite english export / bottled product, that there will likely be a greater caramel malt presence in the commercial bottled variant that is a function of the bottling pasteurisation, and therfore - up the crystal malt to compensate if that caramel type of flavour is your desired result - Or pasteurise your beer.

For reference in this case, they were brewing to the Fullers recipe of 95% MO and 5% Crystal 150EBC (70 - 80L).

Not trying to advise anyones recipe formulation - Just making a point that our HB takes on classic english styles are often brighter, fruitier and hoppier than the export / bottled variants of our favourite brands, and probably much closer to the cask-conditioned variants of their home-land.

This too has been my experience in trying to get that big crystal / caramel /raisin flavour into my Bitters.