Lactose & Maltodextrin Questions

[baileysw]

A couple of questions -
1) I want to add body to a brew using maltodextrin. The local brew shop said that maltodextrin is the same as powdered corn sugar. Is this correct and if not, what is it's common name and where can I buy it?
2) One recipe I am keen to use said to add 250g lactose to my brew. Now I have read enough to know that lactose is pretty much unfermentable so that Og/FG should be equally affected, but can anyone tell me how to calculate how a given volume / weight of lactose will alter the OG/FG calculation?

Cobber

 

[manticle]

Powdered corn sugar is dextrose and is completely fermentable. Maltodextrin is 70 % unfermentable so adds little to alc volume and flavour but aids body, mouthfeel and from memory head retention. It is known as corn syrup and shouldn't be confused with corn sugar. You should be able to buy maltodextrin as maltodextrin at a good brew shop (and if your brew shop is telling you that it is corn sugar as opposed to corn syrup then find another brew shop).

While I use lactose, I have never calculated its separate effect on the gravity so I can't answer that one.

 

[MHB]

This is a job for Plato (P^o)

Plato is a non unitary tool that's ideal for this type of addition, simply P^o is %W/V in solution, so if you put 250g into 22.5L (remember to keep the units the same 0.25Kg/22.5L) or 0.25/22.5*100=1.111111P^o.

To get from Plato to SG (approximately) SG = (P^o*4)/1000+1 or 1.004444

As Lactose is non-fermentable 250g would add .0044 to both the OG and FG

Shame more brewers don't get their heads around Plato it's a really handy way to look at gravity.

MHB

 

[pyrobrewer]

A couple of questions -
1) I want to add body to a brew using maltodextrin. The local brew shop said that maltodextrin is the same as powdered corn sugar. Is this correct and if not, what is it's common name and where can I buy it?
2) One recipe I am keen to use said to add 250g lactose to my brew. Now I have read enough to know that lactose is pretty much unfermentable so that Og/FG should be equally affected, but can anyone tell me how to calculate how a given volume / weight of lactose will alter the OG/FG calculation?

Cobber

Most percieved body in a beer is related to the alcohol content. Lower ABV commercial beers (the early ones especialy) were thin and watery. Maltodextrin is a product of the enzymatic or acid hydrolosis of starch. This starch can have many origins including Corn, wheat, rice, sorghum, potato etc...
The enzymes alpha and beta amylase reduce the very long chains of unbranched glucose units that make up starch, into the three sugars of primary interest to the brewer

1. Glucose = 1 Glucose unit (full name of the dried form Alpha-dextro glucose monohydrate - dextrose for short)
2. Maltose = 2 glucose units
3. Maltotriose = 3 glucose units

The extent to which the manufacturer of the product takes the reduction is expressed in dextrose equivalents "The DE rating of a maltodextrin syrup of DE43 means 1kg has the same fermentability of 430grames of dextrose. Band dried spray dried syrups are often sold in brewshops as "powdered corn syrup" although they may not be derived from corn starch. Corn starch is the prefered feed stock for in plants in north America. In Australia the imported chinese version is mostly produced from wheat starch, so we could call it powdered wheat syrup and still be correct! Starch is Starch! A total conversion will yeild only glucose (well mostly) but by controling the process various other products are also available for use by the brewer. The Glucose, Maltose and Maltotriose are all used by the yeast in that order. The higher sugars such as Maltotetraose = 4 glucose units, Pentose = 5 glucose units and many more, are collectivly called dextrins and are unable to be used by yeast but have an impact on the level of perceived body. However if they are not being converted into ethanol, the best thing for body, it could be argued that adding maltodextrin alone replacing "x" other fermentable could reduce percieved body.
Additionaly malt extract contains Limit dextrins . Limit dextrins are formed by the incomplete reduction of branched glucose structures called Amylo pectin. Our friend the enzymes that we get for free from barley are not able to break up the branches (the branches have Alpha 1-6 glycosidic bonds, not the easily cleaved alpha 1-4 bonds of starch). Importantly our enzymes are more or less active at different temperatures so our mashing temp will affect our finished body. For example 64 degree mash will yield a drier beer - 67c more body.

So where am I going here? To be honest, too the fridge...

OK where were we.. Yes, maltodextrin to add body. What is the beer you are trying to make? If you want body, make a full strength beer without adjuncts (an adjunct is anything other than Malted barley, water, hops and yeast) substitute the adjunct for liquid or dried malt extract. For the more pedantic brewers or the gluten intolerent add malts derived from other grains

Lactose (milk sugar) is used to sweeten beers like milk stouts is this where you are going?

Unfortunatly too many homebrew stores don't know what they sell in terms of analysis of their adjuncts. Just ask them if they know the DE of their corn syrup! Or the ratio of Glucose, Maltose ,Maltotriose .Mostly they will look like the probervial rabbit in the headlight!
I hate to sound like one of the pedantic, but why do you need to calculate the og/fg ratio. Will you be paying excise? Final gravity is what it is. What yeast are you using and what temperature profile? Temperature and yeast strain have a potentialy bigger impact on flavour profile/body than the addition of 250g of lactose.

The important thing for home brewers is not the the FG, but the end point of fermentation, that is - is the gravity stable. Test your brews, if you have the same gravity for 3 days in a row (sugars are no longer being converted) regardless of the measured gravity, its ready to Bottle/keg. For home brewers a refractometer is better than a hydrometer (insert flame war starter here) all we want to determine is the end point of fermentation. There is a good chance we will drink them at 4.8 or 4.7 ABV so what does it matter? We wont chuck them out if the abv is .3 out! Download Beer smith makes brew calcs easy.

Enjoy

 

[manticle]

The important thing for home brewers is not the the FG, but the end point of fermentation, that is - is the gravity stable. Test your brews, if you have the same gravity for 3 days in a row (sugars are no longer being converted) regardless of the measured gravity, its ready to Bottle/keg.

All good info but I think it's important to make a distinction/addition. Stable gravity over three days is good IF it corresponds with an approximate, expected range for FG. A stuck ferment may lead to stable gravity reading over 3 days but doesn't mean the beer is finished.

 

[pyrobrewer]

All good info but I think it's important to make a distinction/addition. Stable gravity over three days is good IF it correcponds with an approximate, expected range for FG. A stuck ferment may lead to stable gravity reading over 3 days but doesn't mean the beer is finished.

Hmmm. Granted as replied, thanks. Worth an edit. Well spotted.

If I may be so bold... How many stuck ferments have you experienced and what was your solution? Do you know what caused these stuck ferments?

 

[manticle]

Not many. Probably 4 and one of those didn't respond no matter what I did. Bottled amazingly high and had no bottle bombs. However one experience doesn't make a fact.

The other 2 were encouraged by usual means - swirling, warming, waiting, racking and on one occasion pitching a new yeast.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the yeast was old or I underpitched or the temp got too cold (at least two of these were during winter and my temp control, while usually efficient, is primitive).

 

[Nick JD]

In 20 years of brewing I've never had a stuck ferment.

 

[pyrobrewer]

In 20 years of brewing I've never had a stuck ferment.

Ditto

 

[manticle]

Doesn't mean they don't happen though. I've never broken my legs either and I've been walking on both of them for over 30 years.

 

[pyrobrewer]

Doesn't mean they don't happen though. I've never broken my legs either and I've been walking on both of them for over 30 years.

:super:

Yo nearly 46 on mine, just a few broken toes (all when pissed, mostly on bed legs)
Come to think of it. I have broken about 6 bones all pissed including my face (maxilla)!- Thank Dionysus I didnt break all them sober!
Not sure how this fits with brewing but i'll go with the thread!

 

[baileysw]

Thanks Manticle and Pyrobrewer. Jeez Pyrobrewer, I'll have to digest that for a month before I can understand it. But thanks for the explanantion anyway. Sounds like my next brew is gonna blow my head off as I've used powdered corn sugar instead of corn syrup.

I spent some time in the UK ten years ago and took a real liking to the thick, smooth, dark beers of the Midlands. My quest is to try and recreate one of these, hence the search for more body. A local brew shop said to try lactose so I'll see how that brew goes in a few weeks.

Ian's spreadsheet on this thread has helped immensely but there's no option to add lactose. I am not after a milk stout Pyrobrewer, just a nice thick, creamy, smooth ale that's not hoppy. Maybe I'll just try the malt as you suggested. I live in NQ and have been using 514 yeast because it handles the heat well. Even though I insulate the fermenter and add ice packs twice a day, it's hard to get in under 24C in summer. Ideally I guess I should be using Wyeast 1084 for this type of brew and hope to give that a try soon. Hope it can stand the heat.

 

[manticle]

Lactose will mainly add sweetness. If you want body then add malt extract. I love lactose in a stout but I like to balance a high gravity stout with roastiness and sweetness (kind of dry vs strong vs cream).

Are you kit based or extract based? Let us know what you're after and we can help formulate a recipe that has the elements you want. Sounds like your HBS is close to useless.

 

[baileysw]

Lactose will mainly add sweetness. If you want body then add malt extract. I love lactose in a stout but I like to balance a high gravity stout with roastiness and sweetness (kind of dry vs strong vs cream).

Are you kit based or extract based? Let us know what you're after and we can help formulate a recipe that has the elements you want. Sounds like your HBS is close to useless.

Thanks for the offer of help Manticle. I can do both kit and extract. Probably prefer extract though if it will give me a significant improvement in the quality of the beer.

 

[manticle]

And are you after a dry roasty stout, a strong stout, highly hopped stout, cream stout or combination?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Snip . . . I hate to sound like one of the pedantic, but why do you need to calculate the og/fg ratio. Will you be paying excise? Final gravity is what it is. . . . Snip

The important thing for home brewers is not the the FG, but the end point of fermentation, that is - is the gravity stable. . . snip

Sorry - all great information in your post, but I disagree with this bit profoundly.

FG is - as most other measurements in brewing are, a target. The major skill of brewing beer, is to brew the beer you intended to make and to do that you need to hit your targets... inclusive of your expected FG. FG only "is what it is" if you don't know how to control it - a skillfull brewer can and will, in order to make the beer they are trying to make.

 

[baileysw]

And are you after a dry roasty stout, a strong stout, highly hopped stout, cream stout or combination?

Definitely not dry roasty, definitely not strong, definitely NOT hoppy - so I guess that just leaves a mild malty cream stout.

 

[manticle]

Are you happy to try steeping grains?

Milk stout
Type: Extract/specialty
Size: 23 liters
Color:152 HCU (~47 SRM)
Bitterness: 29 IBU
OG: 1.053
FG: 1.015
Alcohol: 4.9% v/v (3.9% w/w)
Boil: 60 - 90 minutes
SG 1.102
Boil size: 12 liters.

Grain: 200g Joe white medium crystal
120g British black patent
500g Roasted barley
150g British chocolate
Sugars: 3kg Light dry malt extract
500g Lactose
Hops: 40g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 60 min.)
40g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 60 min.)
10g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 30 min.)
10g Fuggles (aroma)

English ale yeast (safale so4 or a wyeast if you're happy to spend the cash on a liquid). Alternatively I have used US-05 to good effect.

For a kit version sub out 1 kg of light dried with a good stout kit (Thomas Coopers Irish Stout isn't bad at all) and maybe back off on the spec grains a tad (100 each of black and choc instead of 120/150)). Obviously drop any bittering hops out too (the 10 minute fuggles could stay with no drama). If your boil size is different youll need to recalculate the hop additions.

This is based on an AG milk stout I did that was super fine. I've altered it a tad to make it extract (obviously) although I did a partial version of this before I moved to AG and to lessen the alc. content from 6.7 % to around 5 %

If you're prepared to go down the spec grain route (or if you have already) the ones included here will add a different dimension. The roast barley will give a distinct coffee flavour. The amount I have included in this recipe is quite a lot but it seems to work and is not overpowering. Your mileage etc etc.

 

[JohnH]

A 'stuck ferment'?............I have kit stout in currently and it bubbled its guts out for not quite 2 days and has stopped dead..............SG is 1036..........but it includes 500gm CSP and 500gm Lactose along with the can and 1kg of dextrose/dark malt mix..........and 100gm of cracked roasted barley ........+ hops (in 20 litres ) and all only fairly coarsely strained into fermenter..........I have no idea where a brew should ferment out to - SG-wise - when there's 1 kg of non-fermentables in it??? (it started at 1072)........which suggests that a loss of 36 points is getting somewhere near the mark for the amount of fermentable stuff, but maybe not quite enough?

The 'plato' method - as described in this forum- escapes me (not hard)......because it seems the difference based on 250 gm lactose was too much....maybe I missed something.

Anyone have any clues as to how I can know - for this brew or any other - whether 3 days of same SG reading means it's 'done' or means it's 'stuck' when I'm using all this shite that doesn't ferment?

(I presume bottling a stuck ferment leads to the 'ejaculating' bottles I strike occasionally upon opening?)

 

[colonel]

PPP"

Sorry - all great information in your post, but I disagree with this bit profoundly.

FG is - as most other measurements in brewing are, a target. The major skill of brewing beer, is to brew the beer you intended to make and to do that you need to hit your targets... inclusive of your expected FG. FG only "is what it is" if you don't know how to control it - a skillfull brewer can and will, in order to make the beer they are trying to make.

Snip . . . I hate to sound like one of the pedantic, but why do you need to calculate the og/fg ratio. Will you be paying excise? Final gravity is what it is. . . . Snip

The important thing for home brewers is not the the FG, but the end point of fermentation, that is - is the gravity stable. . . snip

Sorry,too many words in Pyro's comments for me to bother with, but the bit that you snipped sounds right to me.
I like this forum, and get plenty of enjoyment from reading the many ideas, but I do think some people get too wound up in numbers.
If you're selling beer, then you have to be consistent, but if you are only doing it for your own enjoyment, what's wrong with a little uncertainty (as long as it's drinkable).
I like to keep it simple and easy, put the brew together, wait 10 days, bottle it, (and put another brew on straight away), wait a couple of months, and drink it. The cycle of life!

Cheers