I Cannot Brew A Good Batch.

[eamonnfoley]

Firstly I apologise in advance for this rant.

Before I moved to my current house, I tried 6 batches at my apartment, all extract / extract with steeped grain. Only the 3rd started drinkable (and quite nice), but slowly became undrinkable after about a month - losing all hop flavour & developing a cidery taste. The others developed the cidery taste in the later stages of/after fermentation. It was unusual because there were no signs of infection and samples during primary fermentation were quite tasty. Note that the cidery taste was not severe - only a couple of times did it develop into a full blown infection that tasted completely rancid and gushed. During this time I rotated between two primary fermenters, and sometimes used my glass secondary. I eventually gave up and waited until the settlement on the new house went through before thinking about brewing again.

I then moved to my new house, bought a large brewpot, burner, BIAB, chiller etc. I got all excited - I guess I thought there was a bug in the apartment that I had left behind. Now I've tried two BIAB batches, and one extract brew. The first BIAB appeared promising, but then lost all flavour once in the bottle, and eventually turned into a dangerous gushing mess. The second BIAB went along nicely, but ended up just tasting extremely bitter, flavourless and stale - any malt and hop taste disappeared. This one was kegged, and then suitably poured out. I had replaced taps on fermenters, hoses, etc etc. I eventually put it down to a scratch in the plastic fermenter.

My current batch in the keg now is a back to basics kit brew (coopers Aust PA) with another tin of malt extract. I fermented in glass this time (first time Ive did that for a primary). IT showed some promise when I drew my first pint from the keg, but a few days later it is deteriorating and I can sense a slight twang coming on. Visually the beer is suberb. But I can tell its on the way downhill. It just doesnt seem to have any taste despite being loaded with cascade and amarillo. It is becoming more bitter as well.

I practice thorough sanitation, etc etc. As you could imagine I am getting more paranoid each time. Used Iodophor to sanitise on the last 3 batches after cleaning. I also apply boiling water to the keg and the glass fermenter as an extra measure. My chosen recipes are tried and tested ones. I ferment at the right temp, pitch the right amount of yeast etc etc. Tried dry and liquid yeast, different ale strains etc.

I've poured a ton of money into equipment, ingredients, and wasted a hell of a lot of time brewing, and reading - with nothing at all to show for it. Its really depressing. I'm certainly not stupid either - If I can design electrical substations worth millions of dollars, surely I can brew a batch of beer if I put my mind to it - although it seems I cant! Surely it wasn't meant to be this hard.

Any idea what I should do? What could cause a batch to deteriorate slowly? Most documented infections are quite severe and obvious. I took a sample to a homebrew shop and the guy there could not pick what was causing the total lack of taste and harsh bitterness. My motivation is shot to pieces, as much as I love craft beer and dream of brewing a nice drop - i can't bring myself to waste another day on it.

 

[GMK]

Easiest option is to join the West Coast Brewers and take a sample along...they will tell you waht it is.

On a side note look to the following..
- what yeast and temp was used.
- was the fermenter left in sunlight as oppesed to in a dark cupboard.
- what bottles is the beer in - clear, green or brown galss being the best.

So with more info we can help better...

 

[buttersd70]

Wow, that sucks....

I think the best thing would be to see if there are other brewers near you that can sample your beer, to see if they can put their finger on what the problem is....or perhaps an experienced brewer can look over your shoulder whilst you do a simple brew, to see if there is anything, no matter how seemingly insignificant, that you might be missing that comes to their attention?

 

[peas_and_corn]

Sorry to hear about your infection issues, infections are always disheartening to brewers.

I have a couple questions (if any of them sound obvious or patronising it's not my intention; I'm getting as much I want to know out of the way):

1- How do you clean your fermenters? Do you use anything abrasive (such as the abrasive side of a two sided sponge)? If so this can create infection harbouring scratches.

2- How are your taps looking? They can harbour bugs easy

3- How is the thread in your fermenters? This is an easily overlooked area for cleaning (I know I do) and can hold bugs.

4- Sometimes 'cidery' texture can be caused by overpriming- how much sugar are you using? What is your priming method? What is your priming sugar?

5- How do you clean and sanitise your bottles?

6- How old is your bottle brush? At one point I came to the realisation that my bottle brush could be holding an infection, pushing it into every bottle that I cleaned. I have since replaced it.

7- The batches you mention- are they the only batches you have made, or just the most recent ones? (maybe this question should have been earlier...)


Hmm... a bit of a mystery

 

[clean brewer]

Yeh, check those taps, pull them apart, I thought I was clean till I pulled those taps apart, if you use a little bottler aswell, pull it apart also, lots of gunk gets caught it the spring and seal..

Dont give up and take the advice of the other guys, could be something you are missing that someone else could pick up...

 

[Gavo]

I have had one extract brew that started out with minimal flavor but drinkable at first but deteriorated over time also. I had put it down to only a 60min and 30min hop addition and therefore no hop flavor. But... after reading your post and the words "flavourless and stale - any malt and hop taste disappeared" I am thinking that it may be the result of HSA.

How are you transferring your boiled wort into the fermenter? Are you cooling it first or pouring it hot? If hot then HSA may occur.

I was pouring it in hot, which would cause HSA and the brew then could oxidize over time and therefore cause the brew to deteriorate over time. After that brew I started to chill the boiled wort in the stockpot before tranferring it to the fermenter and hav had no trouble since.


Don't give up. Rather, try to identify the problem.

Cheers
gavo.

 

[eamonnfoley]

Sorry to hear about your infection issues, infections are always disheartening to brewers.

I have a couple questions (if any of them sound obvious or patronising it's not my intention; I'm getting as much I want to know out of the way):

1- How do you clean your fermenters? Do you use anything abrasive (such as the abrasive side of a two sided sponge)? If so this can create infection harbouring scratches. I soak for days with pink neo powder (Chlorinated Tri-sodium Phosphate). But have used a few other sterilisers during the course of my batches. I was very careful not to scrub with anything abrasive. MY problems also extend to using glass as a primary.

2- How are your taps looking? They can harbour bugs easy. THey were suspect but changed them with little improvement.

3- How is the thread in your fermenters? This is an easily overlooked area for cleaning (I know I do) and can hold bugs. Look ok but could have contributed I guess. scrubbed them with airlock brush. But again had problems with glass also.

4- Sometimes 'cidery' texture can be caused by overpriming- how much sugar are you using? What is your priming method? What is your priming sugar? Used various calculators to prime. CArbonation was ok. Used dextrose. But problem was also associated with kegging.

5- How do you clean and sanitise your bottles? Neo powder, new bottlebrush, iodophor, and bottle tree on last bottled batch.

6- How old is your bottle brush? At one point I came to the realisation that my bottle brush could be holding an infection, pushing it into every bottle that I cleaned. I have since replaced it. brand new.

7- The batches you mention- are they the only batches you have made, or just the most recent ones? (maybe this question should have been earlier...) Sadly all that I have made!


Hmm... a bit of a mystery Tell me about it! hehe.

Im glad your asking questions! My answers above. Cheers.

 

[eamonnfoley]

I have had one extract brew that started out with minimal flavor but drinkable at first but deteriorated over time also. I had put it down to only a 60min and 30min hop addition and therefore no hop flavor. But... after reading your post and the words "flavourless and stale - any malt and hop taste disappeared" I am thinking that it may be the result of HSA.

How are you transferring your boiled wort into the fermenter? Are you cooling it first or pouring it hot? If hot then HSA may occur.

I was pouring it in hot, which would cause HSA and the brew then could oxidize over time and therefore cause the brew to deteriorate over time. After that brew I started to chill the boiled wort in the stockpot before tranferring it to the fermenter and hav had no trouble since.


Don't give up. Rather, try to identify the problem.

Cheers
gavo.

I've often thought, could oxidation be the problem ? (and hoped it was !)

For partial boils I cool the brewpot in a sink full of ice water. For full boils I use my plate chiller, but then need to immerse the fermenter in ice water as it is not cool enough for pitching.

Im glad you mentioned it because: For this batch I used a glass primary for the first time. Was hoping that would solve the problem if the plastic fermenter was to blame. Just did i simple kit beer because I did not want to waste too much time. However I may have poured the wort into the fermenter before it had cooled quite enough (im guessing it was about 40-45C). And then mixed it with cold (preboiled) water from the fridge. I then cooled it in the fridge to about 20C before pitching.

Might try another BIAB, using the glass primary and the chiller.

 

[HoppingMad]

You talk about 'twang' and 'cidery tastes'.

Sounds like temperature control to me.

Are you fermenting in an place that's a lit area or subject to temperature fluctuations? Higher temps will give you twang. An ale like the one you're done needs to be fermenting somewhere cool and dark at around 18 degrees. Not sure of the temp? Grab a thermometer and stick it in a glass of water to establish what the temperature is in the area. If you've got a fridgemate or some temp controller, then I'll assume temp control isn't the issue though and you've got that sorted.

What sort of yeast did you use on the coopers? If you used coopers yeast, that could also be part of the problem as they are 'twangy' when brewed at too high a temp.

Then again, could be just some serious scrubbing like the guys said - but sounds like you've already been looking at that.

Hopper.

 

[Gavo]

However I may have poured the wort into the fermenter before it had cooled quite enough (im guessing it was about 40-45C). And then mixed it with cold (preboiled) water from the fridge. I then cooled it in the fridge to about 20C before pitching.

From what I understand 40 - 45C shouldn't be a problem. When cooling in the fridge before pitching, how long for? Is the fermenter sealed? could there be an infection getting in here by drawing in air and possibly an infection from the fridge?

Cheers
Gavo.

 

[eamonnfoley]

You talk about 'twang' and 'cidery tastes'.

Sounds like temperature control to me.

Are you fermenting in an place that's a lit area or subject to temperature fluctuations? Higher temps will give you twang. An ale like the one you're done needs to be fermenting somewhere cool and dark at around 18 degrees. Not sure of the temp? Grab a thermometer and stick it in a glass of water to establish what the temperature is in the area. If you've got a fridgemate or some temp controller, then I'll assume temp control isn't the issue though and you've got that sorted.

What sort of yeast did you use on the coopers? If you used coopers yeast, that could also be part of the problem as they are 'twangy' when brewed at too high a temp.

Then again, could be just some serious scrubbing like the guys said - but sounds like you've already been looking at that.

Hopper.

I ferment in a fridge using a fridgemate, unless its winter and the room temp is suitable. Using nottingham, US05 yeasts. With and without rehydration.

 

[eamonnfoley]

From what I understand 40 - 45C shouldn't be a problem. When cooling in the fridge before pitching, how long for? Is the fermenter sealed? could there be an infection getting in here by drawing in air and possibly an infection from the fridge?

Cheers
Gavo.

I cleaned the fridge with bleach - was spotless. And had same problem fermenting in winter in 18C room.

 

[petesbrew]

I'm certainly not stupid either - If I can design electrical substations worth millions of dollars, surely I can brew a batch of beer if I put my mind to it -

Surely you can, but an Electrical engineer here at work told me how he made low alc beers by bottling before fermentation had finished. I couldn't believe it.
When I enquired later how his beers went, he went all stroppy, "Nah I've given up".

Sounds like you're doing everything right, so definitely try to catch up with some WA brew clubs and share your bottles round with them.
Good luck finding the problem.

 

[eamonnfoley]

Surely you can, but an Electrical engineer here at work told me how he made low alc beers by bottling before fermentation had finished. I couldn't believe it.
When I enquired later how his beers went, he went all stroppy, "Nah I've given up".

Sounds like you're doing everything right, so definitely try to catch up with some WA brew clubs and share your bottles round with them.
Good luck finding the problem.

hehe. I certainly wasn't trying to be cocky. But just pointing out that I'm not ignoring the fundamentals such as what you have described above. I feel I am doing everything properly but something obscure is tripping me up, and I havent been able to work it out for nearly a year.

 

[Brewer_010]

May be a simple thing, but have you been sterilising your bottle caps and the kegs (esp. lid and valves etc)

When I was bottling yrs ago I was getting some sharp 'metallic' and other wierd flavours in bottles, then when I sterilised the caps no problem.

Just leaving no stone unturned....sounds like a PITA. Keep looking at every little thing in your process.

 

[cozmocracker]

something else you could try is get another brewer to come over and get them to do a batch! if all works out well for them, then the finger will be pointing at you and not your gear?

just a thought.

 

[chappo1970]

Wow, that sucks....

I think the best thing would be to see if there are other brewers near you that can sample your beer, to see if they can put their finger on what the problem is....or perhaps an experienced brewer can look over your shoulder whilst you do a simple brew, to see if there is anything, no matter how seemingly insignificant, that you might be missing that comes to their attention?

Sounds like the best advice IMHO...

 

[HoppingMad]

I ferment in a fridge using a fridgemate, unless its winter and the room temp is suitable. Using nottingham, US05 yeasts. With and without rehydration.

Fair enough - sounds like you know what you're doing and have the full kit to do the job properly. A club will definately point you in the right direction. Have joined one myself and brews have improved greatly. Getting someone to look over your shoulder is a good idea.

If infections are an issue, sanitise your equipment, leave it in the hot sun then rinse it all again. The sun will get rid of any residual nasties in any plastic items you're using.

Are your extracts fresh or are you storing them too long? This could make a difference too.

Pete has a point though - if your beers are tasting a bit green it might be because you're under-fermenting them? A lot of brewers will let the beer sit in a fermenting fridge for 2-3 weeks so that everything drops to the bottom and fermentation can be assured of being fully done. As has been covered many times here, airlocks lie. How long you putting them in for?

Have heard that there is a lambic beer yeast strain that can really arse up your equipment too. Numerous threads on that one. If you've been brewing any wacky belgian ales with that - then it might be an issue that no amount of sterilising will solve according to posts I've read. People who do lambics often have seperate equipment to do those brews.

Hopper.

 

[itguy1953]

I've often thought, could oxidation be the problem ? (and hoped it was !)

For partial boils I cool the brewpot in a sink full of ice water. For full boils I use my plate chiller, but then need to immerse the fermenter in ice water as it is not cool enough for pitching.

Im glad you mentioned it because: For this batch I used a glass primary for the first time. Was hoping that would solve the problem if the plastic fermenter was to blame. Just did i simple kit beer because I did not want to waste too much time. However I may have poured the wort into the fermenter before it had cooled quite enough (im guessing it was about 40-45C). And then mixed it with cold (preboiled) water from the fridge. I then cooled it in the fridge to about 20C before pitching.

Might try another BIAB, using the glass primary and the chiller.

It sounds like all of your brews are going through the chiller. Have you boiled the chiller lately? They can harbour lots of organic material and bugs. A good boil, and a flush through with tap water (both ways) can clear this up.

Have you thought about eliminating the potential bugs from adding dextrose/sugar for secondary fermentation by boiling the dex/sugar in water and bulk priming? Just another potential source of infection to eliminate.

Barry

 

[eamonnfoley]

It sounds like all of your brews are going through the chiller. Have you boiled the chiller lately? They can harbour lots of organic material and bugs. A good boil, and a flush through with tap water (both ways) can clear this up.

Have you thought about eliminating the potential bugs from adding dextrose/sugar for secondary fermentation by boiling the dex/sugar in water and bulk priming? Just another potential source of infection to eliminate.

Barry

Only my last 2 batches used the chiller. And I use a hopscreen to stop matter getting into it. I didnt boil it but soaked in steriliser and flushed.

I also boil dextrose to bulk prime when bottling.

One thing that does concern me is that I struggle to get a smooth flow through the tubing to the chiller then to the fermenter. I suspect some airbubbles may be present and sometimes I stop start a few times. But This issue didnt exist when i did extract and I had a similar result.

Cheers.


Cheers.