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How to measure IBUs using whirlpool/hop back method?

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lswhi3

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Hey guys,
I'm designing a pacific ale, and am not sure that beer smith is actually doing the correct IBU calculations... Can anyone help me out?

Mash:
80% pale malt
10% wheat malt
10% wheat flakes

Hops:
15g galaxy 30mins (20IBUs) (considering pulling this back to 10mins and increasing addition).

Whirlpool/steep at 80C:
60g galaxy 30mins (IBUs??)

Dry Hop:
60g galaxy 3 days

What do you guys think? I'm pretty much going for a 20-40IBU beer that's very galaxy/passionfruit pungent. Based on pacific but I want the galaxy to be even more prominent.
 

lswhi3

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also, is 80C the best temperature for the whirlpool?
 

///

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Hi Mate

Can i ask where you get the 80C steep? Run the boil as normal, turn off the heat, stir to whirlpool and add the hops. Do not try and drop the temp by any means.

From my languid experience, 2 years ago i ran our beers thru bitterness testing (pentane/photospectrometer method) and got some scary results. Firstly, all the BU's were out, second i was brewing badly. I get between 30 -70% bitterness from the whirlpool, that testing showed that. The beer was not so hot-to-snot from the excess bittering, the tasting showed that.

For our Pale and IPA, with a mix of 8-14AA mostly C hops I get 50% bittering from the Whirlpool. For out Blonde-Golden Ale using higher Alpha Aussie Hops (Ella,Galaxy,Topaz) i get 70% (I bitter to 8BU and get 16-20BU from the whirlpool).

Using Aussie hops every day in our plant, figure out the total bittering potential if you boiled those babies for an hour, divide it by 2 and you will be close to what you will get from the whirlpool.

With the oils in Aussie hops, the dry hop will give great flavour and nose, best method is to check them in dry so no bittering will come thru. i'm inclined to decrease the whirlpool and increase the dry hop ...
 

Ducatiboy stu

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Luke1992 said:
Hops:
15g galaxy 30mins (20IBUs) (considering pulling this back to 10mins and increasing addition
Why..???

I would go to a 60min addition and get proper full utilization and isomerisation.
 

///

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I gotta say, i just do bittering addition and then whirlpool. Have cut out all the mid-boil hops. It is fine if you are doing a lager beer and low alpha hops, otherwise there seems no value and the higher alpha just fry off to bitterness ...
 

LorriSanga

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/// said:
Can i ask where you get the 80C steep?
I read a BYO article that said chilling down to below 80 and maintaining the heat while whirlpool/stand was getting the best result for aroma with minimal bitterness.
 

LorriSanga

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/// said:
I gotta say, i just do bittering addition and then whirlpool. Have cut out all the mid-boil hops. It is fine if you are doing a lager beer and low alpha hops, otherwise there seems no value and the higher alpha just fry off to bitterness ...
Isn't the 30/20 minute additions where the hop flavor come from?
 

Oakers

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I reckon go for the plan you have. I recently made a 100% galaxy late hopped ale. I used 800g of wet (fresh) galaxy flowers. 400 grams were added at flameout and another 400 grams at 80 degrees C. Software calculated IBUs at about 120 but it is nowhere near that. It does have a firm bitterness but is very drinkable with absolutely heaps of flavour and aroma. Obviously it will be a bit different with pellets but give it a go.
 

///

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Sorry, i'd like to see the science in the 80C method and the 30 min addition. Alot depends on how you are cooling your beer, do the math, with a a 10-20 mins in a whirlpool and 45 min run off via a heat ex, a 30 minute additional would have sufficient exposure to temperatures that would isomerise the hops to bitterness. i.e 30 min addition + 10 mins whirlpool+45 mins run off = > 60 minutes ... hop acids isomerised ...

If you are trying to cool to 80c, how would you acheive this? Via an immersion chiller or cold water addition or leaving it to sit cooling (whereby hop acids are isomerised even more)? Part of the reason you crash cool from boiling via a heat ex to a fermenter is to then pitch yeast and have your yeast race to the bottom and win the war against other yeast or bacteria. Part of the reason plastic cubes work so well is that you are well into the 90's when you transfer and then this sanitizes the cube and contents until you pitch yeast.

What happens if you overshoot and go to 70c ... you have to heat you again? this opens up a can of worms that is not worth the effort.
 

CapnK

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/// said:
I get between 30 -70% bitterness from the whirlpool, that testing showed that. ...
///
How long do you stand after flameout? How long do you whirlpool? Are you no chilling?
 

jlm

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LorriSanga said:
Isn't the 30/20 minute additions where the hop flavor come from?
Yes and no............depending on your system, whether you no chill or not, there's no easy answer for that one. Bearing in mind that Pacific Ale stinks of Galaxy but is pretty light on in flavour.


With Galaxy being so high in AA and i was brewing on my system (plate chilled) I'd go along with Scotty's suggestion and keep it simple.......throw a tonne of hops into the whirlpool and again considering that high AA.......keep your bittering addition light, like 5 IBU worth if you're going to go nuts with it late.
 

///

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CapnK said:
///
How long do you stand after flameout? How long do you whirlpool? Are you no chilling?
The bittering testing came off a combi 2000l kettle/whirlpool which we used on contract. It is a case of boil, kill steam, hit pump to WP, chuck in the hops, spin for 10, stand for 10.

On the 40l test kit I do the same as he above but cube straight after the 10 mins stand.

I use alot of the Aussie hops, the volatility is both your friend and foe. When you get it right, Hop-Dang!
 

CapnK

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/// said:
The bittering testing came off a combi 2000l kettle/whirlpool which we used on contract. It is a case of boil, kill steam, hit pump to WP, chuck in the hops, spin for 10, stand for 10.

On the 40l test kit I do the same as he above but cube straight after the 10 mins stand.

I use alot of the Aussie hops, the volatility is both your friend and foe. When you get it right, Hop-Dang!
Thanks.
 

Dan Pratt

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Beersmith 2.0 calculates the whirlpool hop additions.

Also, if your going for pacific ale, it's 40% torrified wheat from previous PA threads on here. No cold crash, direct from ferment FG to the keg.

I have a stack of Galaxy and have planned to make that beer, 5ibu from 60mins and then 18ibu from the whirlpool for 20mins, chilled with an immersion chiller immediately after the whirlpool.

Another thing, I have had great results with a steeping at <80c, it was the way I got aroma for a number of brews but recently leaning more towards whirlpool and dry hopping. Epic pale of from Nz has a CYBI session where he talks about whirlpooling at flameout then chilling to below 80 and whirlpooling again, it works, yet so does dry hopping, it's just another way too layer the aroma.

2c.
 

lswhi3

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Cheers for the advice...

This is for a batch size of 18.9L / boil size 30L.

So I've brought my galaxy addition forward to 10mins and have made it 5IBUs.
I'm doing 10 mins because this shouldn't effect bitterness but should capture some of the flavour/aroma as well? I've heard galaxy isn't too crash hot earlier than 10mins.

In terms of the whirlpool, I'm assuming beersmith 2 calculates the whirlpool steep as flameout-add hops, whirlpool 10mins, steep 10mins. and this is how it gets its IBU measurement? So 26 IBUs from 2oz would be about right for a 20minute whirlpool/steep?

I also found the comment about layering hop flavour / aroma interesting where you use the conventional whirlpool straight from flameout to extract flavour, and then use the second whirlpool again at <80C. Anyone have any advice on what IBUs you'd get from a 1oz addition at 20mins at whirlpool 80C?

Pratty1 said:
Also, if your going for pacific ale, it's 40% torrified wheat from previous PA threads on here. No cold crash, direct from ferment FG to the keg.
so do u mean 50% pale malt, 40% wheat flakes and 10% wheat malt? That seems like a lot of wheat flakes to me. And wheat flakes are OK to substitute for the torrified wheat?

And in terms of the calculation of taking your hops at bitterness at 1 hour boil, divide by 2 = bitterness for 20minute whirlpool, is that going to make an accurate measurement?
 

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