Higher Attenuation, Lower FG. Some styles seem impossible!

[Brewmerang]

I have been trying to create a drier beer by increasing the attenuation.
Many of the styles that are offered on the Brewers Friend recipe builder suggest attenuation rates exceeding 90%? I often find that my recipes do not fit the style because my FG is too high even when I achieve 80%+ attenuation and the OG is correct.

I have tried lowering single infusion mash temps and incorporating temp stepped mash methods. Not much difference.
The best I can achieve is by using US-05 or Nottingham yeast, but this still falls short of the implied attenuation rates suggested by BF.
I have not tried adding more simple sugars but surely this would only increase ABV not attenuation.

Are these figures offered by BF wrong?
Is there a wonder yeast I don't know about?

Any and all input would be appreciated.

 

[akx]

A couple things to try:
Re: fermentation. You need optimal conditions for yeast to fully attenuate. Proper pitch rate, temp control, nutrients in wort, etc.
Re: yeast. Some yeast strains attenuate more than others. A good recipe should point you on the right track to achieve that FG. I've been shocked at some of my FG readings with Saison yeast, as an example but they really can go that low.
Re: simple sugars. They are fully fermentable, so they won't increase your FG. They won't lower it, but they will result in a higher apparent attenuation % and are common on high ABV beers like double IPAs and Duvel to keep the FG low.

 

[MHB]

Adding a little to what akx said:-
Nottingham is more attenuateive than US-05, it should finish lower
As a general rule Lager yeasts will go lower than Ale yeast.
Yeasts that are slow to fallout (flock) tend to be more attenuateive.
There is a way to quickly determine the "attenuation limit" of your wort; it’s called a force test.
Take a small sample of the wort; just a bit more than you need to fill your hydrometer tube; add a large dose of yeast (relatively) maybe something like half a level teaspoon. Allow to ferment somewhere warm. It should be finished in 24-36 hours. Measure the FG. That will give you the fermentability of your wort.

If it isn’t getting down to what you are looking for; measure your mash temperature with a good thermometer. This sort of problem is often caused by people not really mashing at the temperature they think they are.
Every brewer should have a good quality reference thermometer that you use to check your other thermometers/sensors against.
A long mash at ~62-63oC should give the driest possible wort.
Some complex step mashes can make for a more fermentable wort. But not a heap lower, probably not worth the effort in most cases.

Fully fermentable sugars (Sucrose and Glucose (Dextrose) mostly) are 100% fermentable if you replace some of your OG with sugar you will lower your FG proportionally (all things being in normal bounds).

As akx said, some of the Saison yeasts are real beasts!
Commercial "Dry Beer Enzyme" isnt expensive and will get the FG way down.
Mark

 

[TONY VAN DER ZANDEN]

I have been trying to create a drier beer by increasing the attenuation.
Many of the styles that are offered on the Brewers Friend recipe builder suggest attenuation rates exceeding 90%? I often find that my recipes do not fit the style because my FG is too high even when I achieve 80%+ attenuation and the OG is correct.

I have tried lowering single infusion mash temps and incorporating temp stepped mash methods. Not much difference.
The best I can achieve is by using US-05 or Nottingham yeast, but this still falls short of the implied attenuation rates suggested by BF.
I have not tried adding more simple sugars but surely this would only increase ABV not attenuation.

Are these figures offered by BF wrong?
Is there a wonder yeast I don't know about?

Any and all input would be appreciated.

I use dry enzymes, less than $3.00 per 23 litre ferment, also a product called DETAZYME AMG from Hoppy Days does the same job. I consistently achieve attenuation around 99%

 

[Brewmerang]

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions.
Time now to start experimenting with fermentable sugars and (separately) enzymes.

I've been shocked at some of my FG readings with Saison yeast, as an example but they really can go that low.

When you say "Saison yeast" are you referring to diastaticus variants or are there other non diastaticus Saison yeasts with very high attenuation rates?
I don't want to use yeasts with the STA1 gene as I use a bottling wand, bottle condition and re-use bottles. It scares me!

 

[akx]

Do your own research, but I've not had issues after using Saison yeast. If you're really worried, a bottling wand is cheap to buy a 2nd (I seem to keep replacing them as they fail / get lost / get used for sours). Bottles can more easily be cleaned, properly sanitized of you are worried.

 

[Roosterboy]

You didn't share your recipe but the grain you use can make a significant difference, recipe building software like BF sometimes don't have every ingredient (grain) and you put in what you think is close but it isn't. Also what FG are you ending up with?

 

[Brewmerang]

You didn't share your recipe but the grain you use can make a significant difference, recipe building software like BF sometimes don't have every ingredient (grain) and you put in what you think is close but it isn't. Also what FG are you ending up with?

Thanks for your input Rooster. You may be able to help....

It's not a particular recipe of mine that is the issue. It is that certain styles listed on BF state an OG/FG difference that implies a 90%+ attenuation.
I wrote my own calculator on Excel which always delivers similar target results that the online calculators do, although my own calculator is usually more accurate.
I can't include it all on one image, but here is a (partial) example in two offset images:

Here's the recipe on BF
Every time that I use a new ingredient it is added to the linked data along with relevant properties.
In the case of grains, I add the manufacturers listed EBC, P/K/L and Diastatic Power. As a result, the calculated targets are closer than those given by similar products listed by BF and other recipe builders..

In this example the actual OG (1.0495) was a little higher than target because actual boil volume was a little lower. FG was 1.010
This would not fit the style of Australian Sparkling Ale (as an arbitrary example) listed by BF, because, although the OG can be as high as 1.050, the FG should always be between 1.004 and 1.006.
I haven't been able to achieve this. Maybe it is just a case of adding glucoamylase but that would probably make it too dry. Maybe I should adjust the mash schedule. I don't know...

 

[Roosterboy]

I'm in a hurry this morning but you were never going to get 1.004 to 1.006 and attenuation is confusing, there are lots of factors to consider. Maris Otter is a sweet with biscuit, malty grain but it has less fermentable sugars compared to some other grains and it's diastatic power isn't high. With 7% carapils you have a significant amount of unfermentable sugars. 1.010 is good with that amount of hops though as one of the problems with home brewing is chilling the wort quickly so the bitterness doesn't shoot up. It's all about balance. I would read more about attenuation ( real and apparent) in regard to grain, yeast selection,diastatic power and increase the beta rest. I have made a sparkling ale that was very popular and the FG was on the upper limit as you want some mouth feel and good head retention.

 

[Brewmerang]

I'm in a hurry this morning but you were never going to get 1.004 to 1.006 and attenuation is confusing, there are lots of factors to consider. Maris Otter is a sweet with biscuit, malty grain but it has less fermentable sugars compared to some other grains and it's diastatic power isn't high. With 7% carapils you have a significant amount of unfermentable sugars. 1.010 is good with that amount of hops though as one of the problems with home brewing is chilling the wort quickly so the bitterness doesn't shoot up. It's all about balance. I would read more about attenuation ( real and apparent) in regard to grain, yeast selection,diastatic power and increase the beta rest. I have made a sparkling ale that was very popular and the FG was on the upper limit as you want some mouth feel and good head retention.

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I found your suggestions very useful and will, indeed, take it on board and continue my research in the areas you have suggested.

 

[philrob]

Further to the advice already given, the yeast manufacturer on its website gives the Apparent Attenuation range for US-05 in the range of 78 to 82%.
Using an average of 80%, you would not expect to get below about 1.010, so what you achieved is as expected.

https://fermentis.com/en/product/safale-us-05/

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeast selection is pretty key in attenuation and FG, and the data provided by manufacturers is very often WAY off from reality. For example, US-05 for many averages 83% attenuation, not 80%. And all Chicos are NOT the same either. WLP001 averages 74%, 1056 averags 75%, and BRY-97/M44 is 81%. I've gathered these data over the past 4+ years from various sources all over the internet, my own real-life experiences plus the experiences of many others. Linked below is my summation of what I've gathered over hundreds of hours, you might find it useful. I don't have attenuation values for every yeast, but for many of the most popular ones I do.

YEAST MASTER Perma-Living by Yours Truly

 

[Brewmerang]

Using an average of 80%, you would not expect to get below about 1.010, so what you achieved is as expected.

Yes, It was exactly what I expected.

I guess my original query was somewhat ambiguous.
What I really want to know is:
How is it possible that some styles (eg. Australian Sparkling Ale) suggest attenuation rates of 90% without the use of diastaticus variant yeasts or excessive use of simple sugars?

 

[Brewmerang]

Yeast selection is pretty key in attenuation and FG, and the data provided by manufacturers is very often WAY off from reality. For example, US-05 for many averages 83% attenuation, not 80%. And all Chicos are NOT the same either. WLP001 averages 74%, 1056 averags 75%, and BRY-97/M44 is 81%. I've gathered these data over the past 4+ years from various sources all over the internet, my own real-life experiences plus the experiences of many others. Linked below is my summation of what I've gathered over hundreds of hours, you might find it useful. I don't have attenuation values for every yeast, but for many of the most popular ones I do.

YEAST MASTER Perma-Living by Yours Truly

Thanks Dave!
I have taken some time to peruse your summation. I like it. Comprehensive and informative. You have done a good job.
This has certainly put me on the right track and will be very useful. I'll save it for future references.

 

[MHB]

Dave I had a look at the yeast table you put together.

Just one point Fermentis 34/70 is the same as W 2124. It’s the best selling Lager yeast in the world and accounts for something like 45% of all the Lager made in Germany.
Worth noting that W in SW-34/70 stands for Weinstephner, but it is referring to the university not the brewery. The yeast was identified from the culture collection and developed for its brewing traits. It isn't the yeast used at Weinstephner brewery!
Mark

 

[jeroen79]

Try the BE-256 it goes pretty far without having the sta-1 gen.