Help with a "thin" Scotch Ale

[Tex083]

Hi Brewers
I recently brewed a scotch ale (recipe to follow) and have found it to taste ok, it lacks some body and it slightly tannic in flavour. I will run through the brew day as best I can and if anyone knows where the full malty body of my beer has gone that would be great! the beer is good just lacks the malty sweetness that most scotch ales have. If you know how the body can be improved post fermentation please let me know.
I am thinking of doing a small mash and ferment with the yeast from the current batch and adding it back to blend the 2 but dont have much room in the fermenter.

Mash: 23L strike water (its on the high side i know every beer has been fine)
4.4g of Calcium Chloride
4.4g Calcium Sulphate - Didnt check pH waiting on pH meter bulk buy
5.0kg Joe White Pale Malt
1.0kg Joe White Munich - Dark
1.0kg Peat Smoked Malt (5.5 EBC)
0.75 Joe White Dark Crystal
Grain was crushed at my LHBS who crack all my grain.

Dough in @ 74.5 and hold at 69 for 60mins - PID controled HERMS (HERMS measured at HEX outlet, 2nd thermometer in the tun. I may have mashed in at 64 and my system ramps at about 1c per min so the 5-8mins at a lower mash temp shouldnt conver all my starches...should it?)
after 60mins, starch test negative so mashed for another 30mins
Mash out @ 75 for 10mins
Sparge with 17L end up with 29L @ 1.069 into the boil kettle

Post boil I have 25L @ 1.072 (refract & hydro)

Pitch the yeast cake form a 2lt starter of Wyeast Scotch Ale and ferment @ 17.5c for 10 days.

Final gravity of 1.012

Now I do see that the small amount of crystal might account for a lack of sweetness but I thought the high mash temp should have made long chain sugars in the beta-amylase reigon.
Any help would be great.

Tex

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

What is your hop schedule & IBU's

 

[verysupple]

Now I do see that the small amount of crystal might account for a lack of sweetness but I thought the high mash temp should have made long chain sugars in the beta-amylase reigon.

I think you mean alpha-amylase, but that's of little concern.

What sort of carbonation level are you serving at? I've had beers that had great body and mouthfeel early on but seemed to get thin as the bottles reached full carbonation. I've adjusted my priming levels now and those beers are much better. If you keg you could try adjusting the reg, give it a day or so to equalise, and see if it makes a difference.

 

[verysupple]

Also, that's some beastie attenuation from that high an OG with that yeast. Modern malts can convert very quickly (15 min or so) but even if you mashed in at 64 C and kept it there the entire mash that's a low FG. I know you said you used both a refractometer and a hydrometer, but is it at all possible that the OG wasn't actually that high? What sort of efficiency do you usually get? My calcs say you got about 79% efficiency. Does that sound about right for you?

 

[Tex083]

What is your hop schedule & IBU's

Oh man, all that glorious info and I forgot the hops!
Bittered to 24 IBU with 30g of Perle @ 40 mins (-20 adj for no chill)

The OG is correct, might have to look at the paperwork again, it does sound over attenuated which might be infection/bacteria but I would be VERY surprised it's a new fermenter and new starsan. Plus I was a nurse when something is sterile/clean I keep it that way.

It's not primed yet still sitting in the fermenter about to prime at about 2.3vols of C02 144g sugar according to Beersmith.

 

[Tex083]

Oops just looked at the original post FG 1.022 typo sorry
But thanks for the advice.
On a side note what's the max mash temp you have used and still had a drinkable beer? I was planning a stout next but might make a porter.

 

[manticle]

What yeast?

750g of crystal in a batch that size doesn't sound like a lot.

90 minute mash if I'm reading correctly?

 

[Tex083]

Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Yep 90 min mash, in the past I have only done a 60 min mash.

 

[manticle]

For future wee heavies look at a shorter mash 67-70 for 40-60 minutes.
Use maris otter or golden promise and a good uk crystal.
Get gravity points from increasing the boil and back off on the grist to compensate, drop the calcium sulphate addition entirely and reduce the ibu to 18-20.

For this one, you could try maltodextrin or carapils, steeped and boiled.
I also find 1728 needs a good aging period.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

For future wee heavies look at a shorter mash 67-70 for 40-60 minutes.

Slightly OT....

Whats the ideal mash temp/s and time for a Scottish 80?

I am doing 2 batches of the same recipe and will be doing the second one tonight.

First one i did 68 for 90mins.(it's currently in the secondary on some oak)

I dont mind trying different techniques between the two batches - it will be good to taste the differences.

I was thinking of trying a different hop in the second also. (first one was EKG to about 23 IBU)

Any thoughts on alternaive hops for a Scottish Ale (i have a ton of the hops from Temple Brewing so have a variety of english style hops)

 

[manticle]

Challenger would work.
I see no need to exceed 60 minute mash and no need to drop below 67. No hard rules though - your brew.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

68 for 60mins then?

Would you mash out at 75?

Would/should a Scottish have any later hop additions for flavour/aroma?

the first version was a nice simpe single addtion of EKG at 60mins

What about ???

30g Challenger @ 60 (22 IBU)
10g Challenger @ 20 (4 IBU)

Total of 26 IBU

 

[manticle]

I always mash out but at 78. Reason though is that I step mash pretty much every beer and want to ensure no further conversion.

I prefer 18-20 IBU for my wee heavy. All maris or maris and a touch of roast barley (30-50g) and a 3 hour boil.

Wee heavy is not about hop flavour - it's yeast and malt driven. However the hop needs to complement and a shad at 10 minutes of the right hop won't go astray. keep in mind this is what I like in a wee heavy. I'm not drinking yours so if you like crystal, peat, higher hopping rates, whatever then go for it.

 

[Tex083]

Thanks for the input guys really good advice out there.
I add calcium sulphate and chloride at a 50:50 ratio to all beers just to get the Ca up. once happy I will adjust to drive malt/hops.
For the 1st time I did a starch test with Iodine and it was turning black so I kept mashing, probably should have just done as always and used a clock not iodine.
My brew book said to use any hops there for bittering not flavour. I like Perle as its a smooth bittering hop, more German than scottish.

Good call on the Marris Otter really should have used it as a base malt.

 

[manticle]

You still get flavour and character from bittering hops, especially if there is no late hopping.
Calcium sulphate is to push hops - if you're just trying to get the right amount of calcium, go all cal chloride as it pushes malt. Sulphate and dark beers aren't recommended by many sources I've read - might get away with it in something like an American stout or Black IPA but leave it out for scots.