Hefeweizen!

[warrenlw63]

I'm straying a bit from what I know for fact (I'll check Warner's book tonight, outdated as it is,) but I'm pretty certain that Bavarian wheat beer brewers would still aim for as clear a wort as possible. Protein rests, removing break material etc. I know it's a stereotype, but German brewers seem to like to do things by the book.

Why would it be outdated? I can't see many of the German Weissbeer producers having changed their methods and materials particularly much in the last 10-15 years since the advent of the book.

Having owned a copy of it I found it one of the more informative of the CS series. Only problem is some bugger borrowed it and never returned it. <_<

Warren -

 

[DJR]

Interesting quote from the website Malnourished..

That translates to the following for 23L

2.48kg Wheat Malt
1.65kg Barley Malt
50g Roast Malt (some sort of caramunich?)
16g Hops
92g Yeast

Seems like a pretty simple recipe really. Probably need to up the grain amounts by about 15-20% to get a decent OG at homebrew efficiency. The hops originally turned out at 1.6g but i think that's way too low so 16g seems more likely. 92g of yeast might be a bit much as well

 

[Malnourished]

Why would it be outdated? I can't see many of the German Weissbeer producers having changed their methods and materials particularly much in the last 10-15 years since the advent of the book.

Perhaps I'm unfairly tarring it with the same brush as the Vienna and Pilsner books, but I figure the difference is in the malts. In particular, 45-55C rests are no longer recommended for highly modified malts, which relates to what I was originally going on about. I must confess I haven't flipped through the book in a while but I assume that's what he recommends.

This post by Steve Alexander gives a little ( ) more detail.

As for the hops in the recipe, that's an odd one. I initially thought it might be hop extract, but I'm pretty sure German beers are required to stipulate the difference between "hopfen" and "hopfenextrakt." Perhaps it is just that lightly hopped (assuming v.high AA% hops and excellent utilisation)?

 

[colinw]

I've seen hops extract (hopfenextrakt) on the label of only one wheat, which was Schfferhofer dunkelweizen. All others that I've seen say just hops (hopfen), so I'm assuming until told otherwise that if they use hops extract it has to be mentioned on the label.

More than any other beer, it was Hefeweizen that got me into brewing - it was a chance purchase of a couple of bottles of Schfferhofer which set me on the path to beer enlightenment and eventually all-grain brewing. Consequently, hefeweizen is the style I have returned to time & again, and also the style I've had my best competition results with.

IMHO, you can make a great hefeweizen by brewing as simply or as complex as you like.

A basic crisp, pale & refreshing hefe like Schfferhofer Hefeweizen can be as simple as 60% wheat malt, 40% pilsner malt, infusion mashed at 67 or so, OG of 1.048 - 1.052, and bittered to around 15 IBUs with any noble hops. Use WLP300 or Wyeast 3068 at 18 to 20C.

For a more complex hefe resembling Franziskaner, add a little bit of carahell and munich, and use a decoction mash. Either a single decoction to go from 55C to 66C or so, or better still a double decoction starting at a ferulic acid rest in the low 40s, then to a brief protein rest at 55 then another decoction to 66 will give great malt backbone and enhanced phenolics. I made a beer with the double decoction schedule, 60% wheat, 33% pilsner, 5% munich and 2% carahell and wyeast 3638 which was very close in flavour to Franziskaner. Erdinger can be adequately reproduced with a similar grain bill, but with K-97 at the upper end of its temperature range, around 22C, where you get some mild banana from this yeast.

To get more into the Schneider style you need to go darker again, by upping the munich malt proportion, using at least double decoction, and maybe a hint of melanoidin or a dark crystal like CaraAroma (but only 1% or so). A little bit of flavour hopping (like 5g of Tettnang at 15 minutes) helps with the more full bodied & flavoured hefes as well.

cheers,
Colin

 

[warrenlw63]

This post by Steve Alexander gives a little ( ) more detail.

I tried... As soon as he quoted Kunze I feel asleep. :blink:

Warren -

 

[newguy]

Interesting quote from the website Malnourished..

That translates to the following for 23L

2.48kg Wheat Malt
1.65kg Barley Malt
50g Roast Malt (some sort of caramunich?)
16g Hops
92g Yeast

Seems like a pretty simple recipe really. Probably need to up the grain amounts by about 15-20% to get a decent OG at homebrew efficiency. The hops originally turned out at 1.6g but i think that's way too low so 16g seems more likely. 92g of yeast might be a bit much as well

I'm not sure if 1.6 or 16g of hops is correct. 16 sounds right, but this style of beer has so little hops that I wouldn't be surprised if it was really 1.6.

The roast malt would be the equivalent of carafa. It's there to help adjust mash pH down since the grist is entirely pale malt & wheat malt. Remember that the Germans can't use acid to adjust their water since that isn't allowed by the Reinheitsgebot.

92g of yeast is about right. Homebrewers notoriously underpitch. Whereas our beers take 2 weeks to finish, it's about 4-5 days in a commercial brewery. If you ever have the opportunity, get 300 ml of yeast slurry from a brewpub or microbrewery, and pitch that into 20 litres of wort. Then stand back. Also make sure you have a good blowoff system. If not, your wife won't be pleased at you for the beer geyser that hits the ceiling.

 

[Stuster]

That grain bill at 85% efficiency will get you to 1050 on a 23L batch. It must be 16g of hops as DJR suggested. 1.6g of 6% hops will get you 1.1 IBUs, too low even for this style.

I'm sure you are right about the reason for the roast malt. It'd probably be a specially malted product as even the lightest carafa will have too much effect on colour. German brewers can't use acid as you say, but they can use acidulated malt of course.

 

[Borret]

Schneiders site blantantly states they neither filter nor pasturise their beer before bottling. I wouldn't class them as tiny.

I agree that they aren't tiny but I can't for the life of me find where they say they don't filter. Of course I don't read German, though. Can you provide a link?

I must say it wouldn't surprise me entirely if Schneider didn't filter, but seeing as they claim (above) that they bottle straight from primary fermentation with added yeast and speise it seems unlikely. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course.

Try the English section...... The animation for the brewing process and bottling.

I love when people keep arguing an unfounded point.

but I still could be wrong....

Brent

 

[Malnourished]

Try the English section...... The animation for the brewing process and bottling.

Aha, I'm wrong... AGAIN!

 

[user 384]

The roast malt would be the equivalent of carafa. It's there to help adjust mash pH down since the grist is entirely pale malt & wheat malt. Remember that the Germans can't use acid to adjust their water since that isn't allowed by the Reinheitsgebot.

I'm sceptical that it's for pH adjustment and would say it's for minor colour adjustment. Yes German brewers under the Reingheitsgebot are not allowed to add acid, but they are allowed to use acidulated malt, which would be a more logical choice for adjusting pH if they desired to do so.

Cheers
MAH

 

[newguy]

The roast malt would be the equivalent of carafa. It's there to help adjust mash pH down since the grist is entirely pale malt & wheat malt. Remember that the Germans can't use acid to adjust their water since that isn't allowed by the Reinheitsgebot.

I'm sceptical that it's for pH adjustment and would say it's for minor colour adjustment. Yes German brewers under the Reingheitsgebot are not allowed to add acid, but they are allowed to use acidulated malt, which would be a more logical choice for adjusting pH if they desired to do so.

Cheers
MAH

You'd be surprised how much an ounce (28g) of roasted malt will lower the mash's pH. I did a before & after test once with my pH meter for a light beer - can't remember if it was a weizen or a kolsch. Before: pH = 5.8, after: 5.5. This was a 5 gallon batch.

The tannin extraction cutoff is frequently quoted as 5.8, so this lowered a borderline situation into the safe range.

 

[user 384]

The roast malt would be the equivalent of carafa. It's there to help adjust mash pH down since the grist is entirely pale malt & wheat malt. Remember that the Germans can't use acid to adjust their water since that isn't allowed by the Reinheitsgebot.

I'm sceptical that it's for pH adjustment and would say it's for minor colour adjustment. Yes German brewers under the Reingheitsgebot are not allowed to add acid, but they are allowed to use acidulated malt, which would be a more logical choice for adjusting pH if they desired to do so.

Cheers
MAH

You'd be surprised how much an ounce (28g) of roasted malt will lower the mash's pH. I did a before & after test once with my pH meter for a light beer - can't remember if it was a weizen or a kolsch. Before: pH = 5.8, after: 5.5. This was a 5 gallon batch.

The tannin extraction cutoff is frequently quoted as 5.8, so this lowered a borderline situation into the safe range.

I know that roasted malts can lower pH, just saying that if Schneider were interested in lowering pH, they would more likely choose acidulated malt or a traditional acid rest.

A hefe can range in colour from 4EBC to 18EBC. Schneider Weisse Original is often reported to be 19EBC. If you punch the recipe into ProMash, without roasted malt, you get 5.8EBC. With roasted malt (I assumed the specs of Weyermann Carafa Special 11) you get 17EBC, almost bang on for the Original. Now it could be that Schneider have deliberately chosen a darker beer, or it could be that the darker colour is a by-product of adjusting pH with roasted malts. I'm guessing the former, otherwise how do they adjust the pH of their Weizenhell and Crystal, which are lightly coloured?

Cheers
MAH

 

[neonmeate]

otherwise how do they adjust the pH of their Weizenhell and Crystal, which are lightly coloured?

i think you got im there

 

[newguy]

I know that roasted malts can lower pH, just saying that if Schneider were interested in lowering pH, they would more likely choose acidulated malt or a traditional acid rest.

A hefe can range in colour from 4EBC to 18EBC. Schneider Weisse Original is often reported to be 19EBC. If you punch the recipe into ProMash, without roasted malt, you get 5.8EBC. With roasted malt (I assumed the specs of Weyermann Carafa Special 11) you get 17EBC, almost bang on for the Original. Now it could be that Schneider have deliberately chosen a darker beer, or it could be that the darker colour is a by-product of adjusting pH with roasted malts. I'm guessing the former, otherwise how do they adjust the pH of their Weizenhell and Crystal, which are lightly coloured?

Cheers
MAH

You're right, it's probably a deliberate thing to get the colour darker but it may be serving a dual purpose. Surely if they used acid malt, it would have been listed in the recipe. The only point I was trying to make was that a small amount of black malt will reduce mash pH quite a bit. Didn't mean to offend.

 

[user 384]

You're right, it's probably a deliberate thing to get the colour darker but it may be serving a dual purpose. Surely if they used acid malt, it would have been listed in the recipe. The only point I was trying to make was that a small amount of black malt will reduce mash pH quite a bit. Didn't mean to offend.

No offence taken.

Only suggested that they would mostly likely use acid malt if making a deliberate addition over using roasted malts, as it achieves the goal but without having to worry about colour impact. The fact that there is nothiong like acid malt listed suggests that they are not worried about pH adjustment or they use an acid rest.

I think when we see small additions of roasted malt to any recipe, our first assumption should be for colour adjustment.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Dr Gonzo]

The fact that there is nothiong like acid malt listed suggests that they are not worried about pH adjustment or they use an acid rest.

I wouldnt doubt for a minute that schneider employ an acid rest.
The result of this rest is more than just a reduction in pH.
I cant remember the specifics but its all in Warners book.

 

[warrenlw63]

Where's a Kunze quoter when you need 'em. :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Borret]

Yes the rest would be for Ferulic acid, the precursor of clove character. However this is said ideally to be produced at 43c.
Schnieders site and again from the animation, indicates the mashin appears to be 95 deg far (35 celcius) and final rest at 170f (or 77c) which on a typical decoction schedule would miss the 43c rest.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

The way i understood it, there are a number of enzymes at play during the acid rest.
As you slowly raise the temp from 35 to 50 the different enzymes would all go through their optimum temperature range. 35c had something to do with starch or preventing doughballs or something.

 

[newguy]

You're right, it's probably a deliberate thing to get the colour darker but it may be serving a dual purpose. Surely if they used acid malt, it would have been listed in the recipe. The only point I was trying to make was that a small amount of black malt will reduce mash pH quite a bit. Didn't mean to offend.

No offence taken.

Only suggested that they would mostly likely use acid malt if making a deliberate addition over using roasted malts, as it achieves the goal but without having to worry about colour impact. The fact that there is nothiong like acid malt listed suggests that they are not worried about pH adjustment or they use an acid rest.

I think when we see small additions of roasted malt to any recipe, our first assumption should be for colour adjustment.

Cheers
MAH

Personally, colour is the least of my worries when I brew. For me, close is good enough. After all, it only counts for 1 point/50 on the BJCP score sheets. I suppose that it is a challenge, though, to brew the palest beer possible if the style demands it. I can understand the challenge aspect.