Hefeweizen!

[Norsman]

Hi I'm new here, and I am planning on doing a hefeweizen as my next brew. I was wondering what amount of wheat is it safe to use without requiring rice hulls to prevent a stuck sparge.

Im thinking of doing either a 40% wheat 60% 2 row, or 50% / 50%, or 60% Wheat 40% 2 row.

I would like to use as much wheat in the grainbill as possible without having to contend with extremely slow sparges or stuck sparges. Also my lauter tun is quite large so it gives me a shallow grainbed if this makes any difference.

PS. do ricehulls affect the taste at all?

 

[Stuster]

Welcome Norsman. It's a nice style for the summer. It's hard to say how much wheat malt you can use as it really depends on your system. I've used 60% wheat malt and had no problems with the sparge, but other systems will stick with that amount. I've never used them but rice hulls are not supposed to give any taste to the wort.

 

[newguy]

Like Stuster said, it depends on your system. I started off mashing with the "zapap" lauter tun from Charles Papazian's two homebrewing books - two plastic pails, one inside the other, with many small holes drilled in the bottom of the inner pail. Didn't matter if the mash had any wheat or not, it would always stick with that setup.

I moved on to an esky (cooler) with a slotted copper manifold and then on to a SS false bottom in a metal mash tun and have never had a stuck runoff with either, even with mashes up to 67% wheat malt.

Start with a very slow runoff - about 500 ml/minute. In my experience, a runoff that starts off quickly has a greater tendency to stick later on.

Hope this helps.

 

[Screwtop]

If your making a Hefe then you'll probably want it to be cloudy so you should use a percentage of raw wheat, that changes things a bit, you will need to throw in some rice hulls. Have done 60% malted wheat without rice hulls on my system without a stuck sparge.

Important for a Hefe: 1. Raw wheat 2. Good Yeast (W3068 Weihenstephan, W3333 German Wheat)

Start with a very slow runoff - about 500 ml/minute. In my experience, a runoff that starts off quickly has a greater tendency to stick later on.

VERY TRUE!


Chime in Seth!!

 

[Stuster]

Screwtop, raw wheat's not really traditional in a hefeweizen. Interesting that it works in one though. I guess it makes for a cloudier beer. Agreed on the yeast. Without that, it's not really a German hefeweizen at all.

Edit: The Style of the week thread on weizen here will give you more info as well.

 

[warrenlw63]

Norsman

I've gotten away with percentages of 30% Pils and 70% wheat with a L/G ratio of 3:1 and using a false bottom and no rice hulls.

Couple of tricks. As already mentioned try and keep your L/G ratio high at around 3:1. Make sure you make the effort to do a mashout and don't be afraid to make it on the high end at around 78-80 degrees.

Also make your sparge water hotter than normal. Let it get around 80 degrees. Probably a little dramatic for a regular mash but bear in mind that a wheat mash is a little more devoid of barley husks so your chances of leaching tannins is minimised.

If the runoff slows at all don't be afraid to rake the mash bed with a knife. Just run some criss-cross cuts across the surface to break it up a little. If your runoff is cloudy don't worry it's a Hefeweizen after all.

Hope this helps.

Warren -

 

[Norsman]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I was also wondering what are the opinions out there on using irish moss in the boil? I know hefe's are supposed to be cloudy due to wheat proteins. Is it okay to toss in some irish moss to soak up some of the floaties?

 

[Screwtop]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I was also wondering what are the opinions out there on using irish moss in the boil? I know hefe's are supposed to be cloudy due to wheat proteins. Is it okay to toss in some irish moss to soak up some of the floaties?

Never use it in cloudy beers myself, using W3333 they clear after 2 weeks in the keg. Now I bottle my wheats so that I can roll the bottle and have a cloudy bier mit hefe.

 

[Voosher]

And just to add to the "depends on the system" theme I've found some sparges slow dramatically with 10% wheat. What I used to do, along the lines of cutting the grain bed with a knife, was to poke several holes in the bed with skewer. If you do so, poke many fine holes in different places to avoid significant channeling.
What I do now is give wheat a coarse crush first and then throw that in with the other grains for a finer crush. It seems to leave the wheat in better condition for the sparge. All good sparges since then. I also endorse keeping the sparge at the top end of the temp scale. I've had some great results since paying close attention to sparge temps.

On the subject of Irish Moss it wouldn't hurt but I say that having not used Irish Moss or Whirlfloc for ages. A good vigorous boil and good chilling (if you choose to chill) makes more of a difference than Whirlfloc for me.

 

[Malnourished]

I know hefe's are supposed to be cloudy due to wheat proteins.

If your making a Hefe then you'll probably want it to be cloudy so you should use a percentage of raw wheat

I'm afraid I've gotta respectfully disagree with you fellas here - hefeweizens should be cloudy from the hefe, not the weizen. I can't recall seeing a commercial example that had any kind of haze when the yeast had settled.

 

[user 384]

hefeweizens should be cloudy from the hefe, not the weizen.

Bingo!

Hence kristalweizen, a clear wheat beer, is filtered, removing the yeast.

Bottom line is don't put raw wheat in your hefeweizen.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Norsman]

I know hefe's are supposed to be cloudy due to wheat proteins.

If your making a Hefe then you'll probably want it to be cloudy so you should use a percentage of raw wheat

I'm afraid I've gotta respectfully disagree with you fellas here - hefeweizens should be cloudy from the hefe, not the weizen. I can't recall seeing a commercial example that had any kind of haze when the yeast had settled.

Mal you are right in that respect, What I should have said was that hefe's being non filtered are subject to chill hazing due to the large quantity of large and medium weight wheat proteins. Infact Wit got its name from these chill haze proteins which tend to give the beer a white like 'opaquey' look. I don't know about all of you but I prefer my wheaties chilled... Krystal, I assume has most of those proteins filtered out along with the yeast.

So to rephrase the question, would irish moss take out too much of the wheat proteins to affect the characteristic chill haze and the nice white fluffy head?

 

[newguy]

So to rephrase the question, would irish moss take out too much of the wheat proteins to affect the characteristic chill haze and the nice white fluffy head?

No. I've been brewing weizens for 10 years and I've added irish moss to every batch and they still have the nice fluffy head and characteristic haze. I should clarify that: they have chill haze for maybe 2-3 weeks after kegging. After that, the haze drops out and the beer gets clear.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Hefeweizen's shouldnt have any chill haze.
A sufficient protein rest,
decoction mash
& a long (2 hour) boil should leave the beer clear.
Any haze/cloud in the beer should only be from the yeast in the bottle.
I see haze as a flaw in my weizens.

 

[user 384]

So to rephrase the question, would irish moss take out too much of the wheat proteins to affect the characteristic chill haze and the nice white fluffy head?

I'm still with Malnourished on this one, chill haze is not a characteristic of hefeweizen. As he mentioned, when you look at hefeweizen that has been allowed to settle, they're very clear and don't display chill haze. You have to mix the yeast up to get a cloudy beer. It's my understanding that the traditional way to pour a hefe, is to pour most of the beer from the bottle, then swirl the rest to resuspend the yeast and then pour it into the glass.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Malnourished]

Mal you are right in that respect, What I should have said was that hefe's being non filtered are subject to chill hazing due to the large quantity of large and medium weight wheat proteins. Infact Wit got its name from these chill haze proteins which tend to give the beer a white like 'opaquey' look. I don't know about all of you but I prefer my wheaties chilled... Krystal, I assume has most of those proteins filtered out along with the yeast.

So to rephrase the question, would irish moss take out too much of the wheat proteins to affect the characteristic chill haze and the nice white fluffy head?

I don't think you can lump Bavarian wheat beers with Belgian wits - they are entirely different beers. (It all depends on how you define "tradition" obviously, but) Witbiers came from the era of turbid mashing in Belgium (see the chapter on mashing in Wild Brews.) Bavarian wheat beers are/were traditionally decocted... with a protein rest! One uses raw wheat, the other malted.

I would also venture that all but the tiniest Bavarian wheat beer producers would filter their hefeweizens before bottling, and then add back yeast. So hefeweizens are still filtered, though perhaps not so finely.

And like I said before, I can't recall seeing any commercial examples with ANY type of haze - chill haze included... but I generally don't chill my beers that much anyway.

I'm straying a bit from what I know for fact (I'll check Warner's book tonight, outdated as it is,) but I'm pretty certain that Bavarian wheat beer brewers would still aim for as clear a wort as possible. Protein rests, removing break material etc. I know it's a stereotype, but German brewers seem to like to do things by the book.

But it's your beer, do whatever makes you happy.

So to answer your question, Irish moss will be fine - but it might reduce the haze you seem to think you need.

 

[Norsman]

Mal, you are a beer dork...

I just realized you are right, I was reading up on witbeirs BUT thinking of hefe's in the same context. Those germans are pretty picky. So if I tossed in some irish moss I guess it really wouldn't hurt.

 

[Weizguy]

G'day,

I meant to post earlier, but just got my break time.

I have been lately reading Warner's book, from the classic beer style series, German Wheat Beers.

Keep your brew clear by performing the protein rest. Decoct if you want. Mash out and boil for 2 hours.

I have made some wheat beer with 45% raw wheat (flaked wheat, witbier) and 60% malted wheat (hefeweizen/dunkel) in my setup, with out any sparge issues. My mash/lauter is a 50 litre budget Esky with a copper manifold (courtesy of Gough) and vertical riser pipe connected to my drain hose. This gives me a large surface area and a thin mash bed for small quantities of grain, so I usually do 25 litre or larger batches now.
Never needed rice hulls (I think), but used 'em once anyway, coz I had some (Thanks, Borret).

No raw wheat for a Weizen, though.

Use the right yeast, as has been mentioned. W3056 (Bavarian ale blend - weizen/ale), W3068 (Weihenstephan weizen) and W3638 (Schneider weisse) are all good. I hope to use W3638 soon, and have a lot of experience with the other two. There are others, including the WhiteLabs range and the W3333, which have good reports on this forum.

Out for now
Seth

 

[Borret]

I would also venture that all but the tiniest Bavarian wheat beer producers would filter their hefeweizens before bottling, and then add back yeast. So hefeweizens are still filtered, though perhaps not so finely.

Schneiders site blantantly states they neither filter nor pasturise their beer before bottling. I wouldn't class them as tiny.

Brent

 

[Malnourished]

Schneiders site blantantly states they neither filter nor pasturise their beer before bottling. I wouldn't class them as tiny.

I agree that they aren't tiny but I can't for the life of me find where they say they don't filter. Of course I don't read German, though. Can you provide a link?

What I did find is this:

...The yeast settles at the bottom of the bottle, the wheat beer becomes clear. The beer is bottle fermented at a temperature of 20C for 7 days in a so-called warm store, it then ripens for 3 weeks at 10 C in a cold store. This bottle fermentation in the maturation chambers takes a total of 4 weeks. Draught beer is also treated in the same manner. Our wheat beers are neither pasteurized nor heat-treated...

In many breweries, storage and/or secondary fermentation of the wheat beer occurs in large stainless steel tanks. In contrast, secondary fermentation and storage of Schneider Weisse occurs in the bottle or directly in the keg. The finished wheat beer is ready for delivery after about 4 weeks....

The mixture of fermented young beer with yeast and "Speise" (unfermented wort) is filled into bottles and kegs.

I must say it wouldn't surprise me entirely if Schneider didn't filter, but seeing as they claim (above) that they bottle straight from primary fermentation with added yeast and speise it seems unlikely. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course.

Interestingly, I did find the following on the German part of the site. That could come in handy. :beer:

1,0 l Brauwasser
108 g Weizenmalz
72 g Gerstenmalz
2 g Rstmalz
0,07 g Hopfen
4 g obergrige Hefe