Flanders Red

[raven19]

DrSmurto used the oven on a medium heat iirc to 'treat' his oak prior to using in a bigger experimental beer of his recently.

I just soaked mine in sanitiser for a while then tossed them into primary.

Might go the oven option next time.

 

[tiprya]

Well after more than a week after I pitched the 7 month old packet of roeselare, I haven't got any activity/krausen.

Don't really have an option to get any more liquid yeast in a hurry, so I'm building up some 3711 on the stir plate which should be ready to pitch tomorrow.

I guess I'll end up with a funky saison (if any of the bacteria is still alive), which should still be pretty interesting.

 

[Tony]

bugger!

best option will be to just get something in there. Keep the 3711 cool to keep the lemon hit minimal.

I always keep a pack or 2 of dried US-05 or Noto in the fridge for such times.

 

[tiprya]

Well whatya know?

I go to pitch my 3711 this morning, and I'm met with nice fluffy krausen that has the delicious smell of lacto.

Bit concerned about the lag time, but if it means the lacto gets a good head start and its a sour monster, that's ok with me.

355 days to go...

 

[Tony]

Its always the way isnt it......... the saison yeast scared it

 

[seamad]

Picking up my barrel and some grain next week. Going to epoxy a SS nipple into the barrel and fit a 1/2 inch 3 piece ball valve to make it easier to use the barrel as a solera ( and reduce oxidation issues)..Going to make 4 X 25L batches at @ 1.052 ( maybe higher if I can get anymore out of my system). Thought I might do 2 different grain bills to mix things up a bit. Water additions will probably be 5g calcium sulphate to mash and extra 2.5g in boil along with 2.5g salt.
Wort 1
Vienna 64%
Abbey 10%
Maize 10%
Carabelge 13%
Special B 3%

Wort 2
Vienna 64%
Aromatic 10%
Carared 10%
Golden naked oat 3%
Raw wheat 10%
Caraaroma 3%

Will gelatinise the wheat first.

Both bittered to 10 IBU EKG and/or Styrians

Will pitch 5 packs of 3763 ( Roeselare ) into 75L wort in barrel and add remaining 25 after krausen settled down.

Stick barrel into cellar and try to leave alone for a year.

How does this plan sound ?

Edit...forgot mash schedule

52/15, 63/45, 72/30, 76/10.

 

[winkle]

(Seamad and I have been looking at the same cheat sheet, methinks)

Recipe: FR test batch
Style: Flanders Red Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Recipe Specifications --------------------------
Boil Size: 32.13 l
Post Boil Volume: 27.86 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 26.0 EBC
Estimated IBU: 16.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.9 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes
Ingredients: ------------

2.40 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 1 42.6 %
1.10 kg Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 2 19.5 %
1.10 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EB Grain 3 19.5 %
0.43 kg Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (37.4 EBC) Grain 4 7.6 %
0.43 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 5 7.6 %
0.18 kg Special B (Dingemans) (290.6 EBC) Grain 6 3.2 %
20.00 g Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50 %] - Boil Hop 7 16.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #376 Yeast 8 -
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 9 -
Total Grain Weight: 5.64 kg ----------------------------
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body

Mash In Add 17.74 l of water at 74.5 C 68.9 C 45 min
Mash Out Add 5.88 l of water at 98.1 C 75.6 C 10 min
Sparge: Fly sparge with 17.19 l water at 75.6 C

I'm pretty certain I'll be going for a primary ferment with a neutral ale yeast, then looking at bunging it into the barrel with the Roselare Belgian Blend and leaving it for 12 months before checking with the aim of 18 months before drawing and blending it with a newer batch. I've talked myself out of using a tap for this and will have to go with a wine thief & syphon.

Thoughts Rowy?

 

[seamad]

(Seamad and I have been looking at the same cheat sheet, methinks)


Wild Brews by chance ?

If you're up for it would like to swap say 10 L to make a keg blend ? in a year or so ?

 

[winkle]

(Seamad and I have been looking at the same cheat sheet, methinks)


Wild Brews by chance ?

If you're up for it would like to swap say 10 L to make a keg blend ? in a year or so ?

If I've got 40 litres in that barrel then why not.

 

[Rowy]

This looks good to me Perry.

 

[Sam England]

@seamad - Is there any reason why you'd ferment directly in the barrel? If you continue to do this over the years, won't you end up with a massive yeast cake/sediment and autolysis issues? I've never made a sour and I'm tempted to have a crack, hence the question. I also noticed that Winkle is going down the primary and then barrel approach which I thought sounded logical to avoid this especially if you're going to continue to top up as you decant. I understand the lacto will have a crack at the yeast residue, but are there any benefits in keeping it all in the barrel other than possible oxidation issues during top ups?

 

[Tony]

The bacteria in a sour actually feeds on the dead yeast and the compounds associated with autolysis, They feed on any unconverted starch, tanin compounds from a hot sparge etc etc.

You need to break some rules to make a good sour i think

 

[tazman1967]

Sour beers are all about breaking the rules

 

[winkle]

The bacteria in a sour actually feeds on the dead yeast and the compounds associated with autolysis, They feed on any unconverted starch, tanin compounds from a hot sparge etc etc.

You need to break some rules to make a good sour i think

Rodenbach ferments initially in stainless before transfering to oak, so I was thinking that would be to avoid any autolysis problems. This may be since we are thinking of this particularly in a solera. However if doing a once off it should be no problem.

 

[seamad]

@seamad - Is there any reason why you'd ferment directly in the barrel? If you continue to do this over the years, won't you end up with a massive yeast cake/sediment and autolysis issues? I've never made a sour and I'm tempted to have a crack, hence the question. I also noticed that Winkle is going down the primary and then barrel approach which I thought sounded logical to avoid this especially if you're going to continue to top up as you decant. I understand the lacto will have a crack at the yeast residue, but are there any benefits in keeping it all in the barrel other than possible oxidation issues during top ups?

Fermentation raises some interesting problems for the homebrewer of sours ( either lambic or flanders types). As brewers of normal beers we control fermentation as tightly as possible with pitch rates, temperature control etc. With sours we lose that control to a large extent ( and I think we have to let it go ) and the fact that lambics are traditionally blended is testimony to that, in that different barrels from one producer can vary significantly. Typically Rodenbach (the holy grail) undergoes tertiary fermentation. Primary is sach, in secondary Lacto then takes over, then Pedio, Tertiary fermentation in the wooden barrels then proceeds ( where Brett comes into the picture).

As much as I would like to control the fermentation I've decided to try a lambic approach to fermenting my flanders red, in that the wort will be inoculated ( with 5 packs of Roeselare ) and I'll leave it up to the bugs to do as they please. According to wyeast they have a good balance of organisms to produce a flanders style red, and I think this is an easier way for me than to try and copy rodenbachs techniques.Wyeast also states that with repitching the beer will become too acidic, so I will need to empty and rinse out the barrel from time to time and refill and repitch. With time hopefully the barrel will develop its own (pleasant ?) character. I hope to do a type of solera sytem in that even with barrel rinsing I can transfer some of the old beer to cubes and then put back into the barrel after rinsing with some fresh yeast and wort.I'm putting a ball valve into the barrel to reduce oxdation/pellicle issues when just removing 20 litres as well.

I'm not expecting a rodenbach clone ( that would be either naive or arrogant),but some sort of lambicy flanders rediish type of beer, whether this approach will work, well that's up the the beer gods.

 

[Sam England]

Cheers for the feedback guys. It sounds like I've got a bit more reading to do before I jump in on this one, but it would be great to hear how your brews progress (even if I have to wait a year!! <_< ).
I'll probably have a crack at some point though, given I'm developing a taste for sours and the price/ease of getting hold of good ones here in Oz.

 

[winkle]

I'm not expecting a rodenbach clone ( that would be either naive or arrogant),but some sort of lambicy flanders rediish type of beer, whether this approach will work, well that's up the the beer gods.

Exactly, it'll be interesting to note the differences between approaches to the ferment. Pencil in a tasting session in 18 months or so . I'm not faulting your plan - it is what I was going to do originally and I'm sure it will work - just not very keen on the tap.
As a side note - the BABBs wild brew project went with an initial ferment (W3787, 10%abv) at the individuals houses before checking them (safety first) then blending the acceptable batches into the hogshead with the Roselare and leaving it alone. End result was a pretty damm tasty, high gravity, sour ale of no particular style.