Extreme Sanitising

[PostModern]

Quick question for those in the know.

I recently had a string of bad beers. Like really bad - a strong taste of almond skin or some bitter nut - in a whole bunch of beers. I've tracked down the culprit - a suspected yeast infection in "Fermenter A", which is your standard 30L twist top HDPE fermenter. I've decided to make fermenter A a grain bucket from now on, as it has a deep gouge on the inside, which I think might be the residence of the nasty yeast.

I didn't realise the source of the infection until after I'd taken a top crop of yeast from fermenter A and pitched it in fermenter D , which batch also produced the flavour, but only just within my taste threshold. That beer is now kegged in the keg I normally use for the kids' sparkling apple juice Anyway, Fermenter D is now getting the boiling caustic treatment with half a tub of caustic soda and my immersion element in the laundry tub. Fermenter C, my 25L secondary and fermenter B, both also HDPE, are next in line for a caustic boil... Even tho they have yet to touch the infection, just to be thorough. So that all of my fermenters start with a clean slate, so to speak.

While they're boiling, I'm going to toss in all my airlocks, disassembled taps, etc. The question I have for our chemistry and/or plastics experts is, can I chuck in the fermenters' rubber grommets and lid O-rings as well? Will the boiling temps and/or caustic soda damage the rubber? I think there is a chance they've come in contact with the yeast beast via krausening wort, so I don't want to leave them out of the cleaning regime, and I don't want the expense of replacing them all, having just spent toooooo much Christmas money on grain, immersion heaters, yeast and the like.

Whoops. Looks like the two piece airlocks don't like the heat. Just fished one out all melted and mis-shapen. I guess I'll be buying new airlocks and grommets tomorrow.

 

[Adamt]

Boiling doesn't kill the rubber, I have rubber washers in my kettle. Caustic doesn't attack rubber at room temperature, not sure at boiling though.

 

[Darren]

PM,
I dont know but what about you immersion element?

cheers

Darren

 

[PostModern]

The first batch of gear just got its 10 min boil. The tap in there looked fine, the element came out and got a good rinse and it looks fine, no pitting or anything. I've chucked in the rubber bits to soak for 5-10 mins, then I'll drain the fermenter and give everything a doubleplus thorough rinse. I'll follow up with iodophor and a day in the sun light, followed by iodophor again before use. If that doesn't clean my gear, I'm switching to stainless or glass fermentation gear. Frigging bugs... eating my wort!

EDIT: Fermenter C is getting a PSR wash before it gets its caustic boil. Die bugs, diiiieeeee!!!! (can you tell this infection has got me ANGRY?)

 

[Jez]

Hi PM,

I've got a bad infection as well and am looking at doing a hot caustic boil as you have done.

How much caustic did you put to how much water? just followed instructions on the jar?

Thanks

Jez

 

[PostModern]

Hi Jez,

The directions on the jar recommend 110g in 2 litres for degreasing sink traps and the like. I used about 2-3 capfuls (estimate, I just tipped some in) in the 30 litre fermenters.

I'm taking Darren's caution about the immersion element on board (it's a brand newy, so I'd hate to kill it) and for the rest of the gear I'm just going to boil the water for 5 mins or so, then remove the element before adding the caustic and let it soak for 10-20 mins.

I can't see how any micro-organism could survive that kind of treatment unless it evolved on the surface of Venus or something.

I noticed also that on the first one, the bottom of the fermenter bowed out from the heat. I reheated it with hot tap water, and pushed it back into shape while hitting it with cold water. Luckily I don't have a wobbly fermenter as a result!

Fermenter C is now coming to the boil and Fermenter B is getting its PSR treatment.

Bloody bugs (grumble grumble)

 

[Jez]

Thanks PM

I've seen a few posts where people also clean their march pump, lines etc with a caustic solution.

This concentration of caustic (2 or 3 capfuls to 30 litres of boiling water) should also be ok for me to pump thru my march pump, silicon hoses and shiney new polysulfone disconnects for 10-20 mins right?

Jez

 

[PostModern]

This concentration of caustic (2 or 3 capfuls to 30 litres of boiling water) should also be ok for me to pump thru my march pump, silicon hoses and shiney new polysulfone disconnects for 10-20 mins right?

I'm not going to answer that.

Just let me say, the warning on the jar not to add caustic to boiling water comes with merit. Stand back, wear eye protection and gloves. Such a reaction!!!

 

[albrews]

I'm not going to answer that.

Just let me say, the warning on the jar not to add caustic to boiling water comes with merit. Stand back, wear eye protection and gloves. Such a reaction!!!

hi iron wolf,
i met you on the ibunion.org forum and i am shocked you are still in trouble with the "whats that taste problem" i leave all my guns and lines pumped up with beer and only use sodium metabisulphite for a rinsing sanitiser for the poly fermenter and ss kegs and have never been in infection problems.
i hope things improve for you.

cheers alan

 

[albrews]

hi iron wolf,
i met you on the ibunion.org forum and i am shocked you are still in trouble with the "whats that taste problem" i leave all my guns and lines pumped up with beer and only use sodium metabisulphite for a rinsing sanitiser for the poly fermenter and ss kegs and have never been in infection problems.
i hope things improve for you.

cheers alan

hi iron wolf,
i just remembered that it is advised not to use a scouring pad (steel wool for example}
when cleaning a poly fermenter, ie to cause fine scratches inside the fermenter that enable fungus pieces to grip onto{microscopically that is}
cheers alan

 

[PostModern]

Hi Alan,
Yeah, it's the same infection, but not in the kegs as I suspected. I've been working, then spent a week renovating, so I haven't had time to clean the fermenters until now. I only managed to ruin one more brew with stupidity between the IBU post and now, but it's drinkable (just)

I'm now cleaning all my fermenting gear with boils and caustic. Have chucked and replaced all my transfer and kegging hoses as well (and disassembled all the kegs' posts, pluto gun, sanitised the whole lot). I will follow up with a good clean of the fermentation fridge. Bleach followed by iodophor I think. With Fermenter A being sent out to pasture, I should be able to ferment with confidence from now on.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[Batz]

Hi Alan,
Yeah, it's the same infection, but not in the kegs as I suspected. I've been working, then spent a week renovating, so I haven't had time to clean the fermenters until now. I only managed to ruin one more brew with stupidity between the IBU post and now, but it's drinkable (just)

I'm now cleaning all my fermenting gear with boils and caustic. Have chucked and replaced all my transfer and kegging hoses as well (and disassembled all the kegs' posts, pluto gun, sanitised the whole lot). I will follow up with a good clean of the fermentation fridge. Bleach followed by iodophor I think. With Fermenter A being sent out to pasture, I should be able to ferment with confidence from now on.

Cheers,
Rob

Years ago when doing K&K I had a bad infection,ended up tossing all my fermenters,taps etc. and started out a new,worked for me.
Now the main reason I have posted here is my worry about 20lt or so of boiling castic,this is dangerous stuff guys! I know what castic can do to a person,boiling,I would hate to even think.

Please take extreme care here,really I suggest score some new fermenters,you can use the old ones as grain buckets.

Batz

 

[sah]

Yeah, it's the same infection, but not in the kegs as I suspected. I've been working, then spent a week renovating, so I haven't had time to clean the fermenters until now. I only managed to ruin one more brew with stupidity between the IBU post and now, but it's drinkable (just)

I'm now cleaning all my fermenting gear with boils and caustic. Have chucked and replaced all my transfer and kegging hoses as well (and disassembled all the kegs' posts, pluto gun, sanitised the whole lot). I will follow up with a good clean of the fermentation fridge. Bleach followed by iodophor I think. With Fermenter A being sent out to pasture, I should be able to ferment with confidence from now on.

PM,

You'll be able to swap infections stories with Ray.

I hope you nail it.

regards
Scott

 

[PostModern]

Fair call Batz. I took all precautions, chemical resistant gloves, eye protection, etc. All processes took place in a tub nearly as deep as the fermenters are tall. I had litres of vinegar on standby to neutralise spills, and added the caustic in small doses.

It is extremely dangerous, yes. No one should use it who is not confident in handling dangerous materials. Last week I was acid etching an old concrete slab with Hydrochloric Acid. Again, I took the right precautions for seriously dangerous materials.

That said, caustic is sold in the cleaning aisle of Franklins.

 

[shazzam]

I wish you all the best with this and will second the use of caustic as being highly dangerous - if you really want to get to know about it - google for a material safety data sheet - it can burn your lungs etc.

the best way of clean fermenters for me - use a nice standard microfibre cloth, they make them in a face washer style, you can tell if you have any minute burrs or scratches in your fermenter but wont cause any.

I have never had any problems, i have 4 standard 30litre hdpe types - if i cant nail it with neo pink - a day with napisan in it, in full sun - knocks anything for six, - be careful when taking the lid off - then rinsed a few times, then neoed and rinsed again. baby tooth brush for the tap threads etc.

if you have anyscratches at all - buy a new fermenter - it isnt worth the trouble.

I had a problem with airlocks in boiling water - they tend to melt - and the s types are the worst.

all the best with the bug battle.

shazzam

 

[Jez]

This concentration of caustic (2 or 3 capfuls to 30 litres of boiling water) should also be ok for me to pump thru my march pump, silicon hoses and shiney new polysulfone disconnects for 10-20 mins right?

I'm not going to answer that.

Fair enough, and now I look at what I was asking I don't blame you.

The more I read in this thread about caustic the more I think my clumsy fingers need to steer clear of it and my expensive brew toys will be steering clear too.

Think I'll use something a little less full-on to cure my infection prob.

Thanks all for the advice.

Jez

 

[PostModern]

Probably a good idea, Jez The thread title says it all, really, boiling caustic is pretty extreme.

Main reason I went down this path is because one of the fermenters that gave me tainted beer was brand new. I top cropped some yeast from the suss fermenter and pitched it straight into my new fermenter, then realised that the old fermenter had an infection. Was a stupid mistake, but I didn't feel like tossing a brand spanking new fermenter over something like that... so I went down the "extreme" path and nuked the ******* bug that caused me all the grief, and put the rest of my gear thru the same treatment for good measure.

In fairness to myself tho, boiling 20+ litres of sugary water is pretty dangerous too. I've not managed to scald myself with boiling wort, so I figured the chances of doing it with caustic were pretty low. I had the kids being looked after at a friend's place and the Mrs at work while all this was going on, too! The only possible victim if something went wrong would have been me.

Will find out if it was all worth it with my next fermentation. My no-chill Summer Ale wort is calling me!

 

[dr K]

PostModern
I take it that you are an AG brewer.

Next time you brew give the extreme outside of your boilers outlet a quick touch-up, if it does not burn your skin off then place your finger on it for a tad longer, I reckon that though it will be warm it will not be hot, and certainly not hot enough to kill whatever bacteria is hanging out there.
At the height of my rapidly rolling boil I always run a couple of litres of (now near boiling) wort into a pot and dump it back (HSA be buggered) , and do it again 15 minutes later..and chances are again !!

If that does not work PM, then PM me, there is another way..but its a bit rad for some...

Kurtz

 

[PostModern]

PostModern
I take it that you are an AG brewer.

Next time you brew give the extreme outside of your boilers outlet a quick touch-up, if it does not burn your skin off then place your finger on it for a tad longer, I reckon that though it will be warm it will not be hot, and certainly not hot enough to kill whatever bacteria is hanging out there.
At the height of my rapidly rolling boil I always run a couple of litres of (now near boiling) wort into a pot and dump it back (HSA be buggered) , and do it again 15 minutes later..and chances are again !!

If that does not work PM, then PM me, there is another way..but its a bit rad for some...

Kurtz

Are you suggesting that the source of my infection is the hose barb on my kettle?

If that was the case, my no-chill cubes would be blowing up like balloons. The first beer I noticed the infection on was an extract kit, followed by a wort kit, then another wort kit, now an AG no-chilled beer. Pretty sure, given the taste of the infection and the fact that attenuation is pretty normal, that the culprit is a wild or mutated ale yeast rather than a bacteria. Still, I'd like to hear your other method, so will PM you

 

[big d]

Good advice to steer well clear of caustic.Ive just finished up north where i worked with the stuff for 24 years.(alumina industry).Had a mate get sprayed with the stuff over a year ago and he has spent a fair bit of that year in hospital getting over burns to about 60-70% of his body.Will never be quite the same again.
I must agree with Batz.For what its worth to buy go new and see how you go.Chemicals are bad if you treat them with disrespect.

Cheers
Big D