Effect Of No Chill On Hop Character

[esssee]

Hi guys,

Been AG BIABing for a few months now, and was considering getting a Plate Chiller (part belated Fathers Day present, part Birthday present, I prefer to chose my own).

Would immediately chilling the Wort help keep the hop character and balance where I intend them to be?

Does the continued exposure to the heat change the effect of the Flavour and Aroma Hop additions towards a Bittering effect?

I don't want to start a No Chill versus Chill arguement, just wondering if anyone had any thoughts.

 

[argon]

Would immediately chilling the Wort help keep the hop character and balance where I intend them to be?

Yes

Does the continued exposure to the heat change the effect of the Flavour and Aroma Hop additions towards a Bittering effect?

Yes. refer to the below graph. (Edit) Although it says boiling times, utilization will continue at temperatures above approx 75C

 

[Acasta]

Nice graph argon. Where does that come from?

 

[felten]

I'd take that graph with a pinch of salt, especially with the aroma/flavour lines. It's just gives you an approximation of why you would add hops at certain times.

 

[drtomc]

Also, not that the graph (is it from How To Brew?) is about boiling. In particular, in an NC cube, the volatiles are trapped, and can't evaporate off, which complicates the picture.

T.

 

[loikar]

Just had a thread asking these questions over on BrewAdelaide.com

can read through it here:
http://brewadelaide.com/forum/index.php?topic=389.0

Basically, the theory is that isomerisation does not happen under about 75c.

So with this in mind, last weekend I boiled with all hop additions as if I was to Chill.
then a brief whirlpool and dump into the cube.
Squeeze out all air and seal.
then dump the cube into a cold water bath.

in about 30min my STC-1000 probe told me the outside of the cube was 55c.
it's fair to say that the middle of the cube would still be hotter than that, but wouldn't be any more than 80c max.

So, rather than stuff around with doing a small boil the next day, or guessing IBU's, in theory, you should be able to cube as well as keep all hop additions.

So here's my cube (jerry) sitting in a $10 bunnings bin with a cold nappisan mix around it.
You could use just water, but I had a bit of spillage that I wanted to clean up.


BF

 

[stux]

Just had a thread asking these questions over on BrewAdelaide.com

can read through it here:
http://brewadelaide.com/forum/index.php?topic=389.0

Basically, the theory is that isomerisation does not happen under about 75c.

So with this in mind, last weekend I boiled with all hop additions as if I was to Chill.
then a brief whirlpool and dump into the cube.
Squeeze out all air and seal.
then dump the cube into a cold water bath.

in about 30min my STC-1000 probe told me the outside of the cube was 55c.
it's fair to say that the middle of the cube would still be hotter than that, but wouldn't be any more than 80c max.

So, rather than stuff around with doing a small boil the next day, or guessing IBU's, in theory, you should be able to cube as well as keep all hop additions.

So here's my cube (jerry) sitting in a $10 bunnings bin with a cold nappisan mix around it.
You could use just water, but I had a bit of spillage that I wanted to clean up.


BF

One thing about slow chilling like that is the wort doesn't spend as long at pasteurizing temperatures.

 

[loikar]

One thing about slow chilling like that is the wort doesn't spend as long at pasteurizing temperatures.

I reckon a sanitised cube, with 90degC of wort going into it will pretty much be ok.

 

[stux]

I reckon a sanitised cube, with 90degC of wort going into it will pretty much be ok.

Looked into it...

30 secs at 74C should give you 50 PUs, which should be more than enough

flip, flip, cool.

 

[argon]

I reckon a sanitised cube, with 90degC of wort going into it will pretty much be ok.

When no chilling you have to consider the pasteurization times relative to the temperature. Chucking a 90C cube of wort into a cool environment such as a pool or bucket, may not be sufficient to paterurize the contents. It will quickly drop temp, perhaps outside appropriate pasteurization zones.

Taken from microbiologyon-line

as the temperature is increased, much less time is needed to kill the same number of microbes. For example, the destruction of highly resistant endospores might take 70 minutes at 115C, whereas only 7 minutes might be needed at 125C. Both treatments yield the same result. The concept of equivalent treatments also explains why classic pasteurization at 63C for 30 minutes, HTST treatment at 72C for 15 seconds, and UHT treatment at 140C for less than a second can have similar effects.

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable storing the cube for longer than it takes to get to ambient, if undertaking this method. Will it end in a ruined batch or to botulism? Probably not. But is it more likely than allowing the cube to fully and properly pasteurize? Absolutely. I'm not comfortable with "Pretty much OK" you might be and aware of the increased risk (however minuscule)... and that's cool. But just saying.

In my opinion, "No Chilling" is allowing the hot wort to pasteurize the container allowing for storage. What you've proposed is chilling... just very slowly.

 

[loikar]

Looked into it...

30 secs at 74C should give you 50 PUs, which should be more than enough

flip, flip, cool.

Yep, Same Same

1 minute @ 46 deg C (115 deg F) = 0.01 PU
1 minute @ 53 deg C (127 deg F) = 0.10 PU
1 minute @ 60 deg C (140 deg F) = 1.00 PU
1 minute @ 67 deg C (153 deg F) = 10.0 PU
1 minute @ 74 deg C (165 deg F) = 100.0 PU

 

[QldKev]

I've slow chill most of my cube, unless I'm out and about then I just let them no chill. Never have issues with them. But I also do starsan them before use.

I've got some thoughts on my website about adjusting the times for no chill compared to the different chilling methods.

QldKev

 

[freezkat]

this is done air-tight?

does it implode the container?

 

[argon]

yes but when full only a very tiny amount.

 

[QldKev]

this is done air-tight?

does it implode the container?

yep done up air tight,

nope will not implode the container any amount that matters.

QldKev

 

[jkmeldrum]

Okay,

I have a plate chiller but not using it inside as it causes too much mess...not til I get my brew stand setup in garage. So I've been using hops from recipes without adjustment.

At the end of my boil, I dump my hot wort into a sanitised fermenter and put it in a spare fridge in the garage to bring it down to yeast pitch temps overnight. In the winter in the past I've also just put the lid on my boil kettle and put it outside and covered it with alfoil.

But this thread has got me thinking .... even though there's no hops in the warm (cooling down) wort, are we saying that the high temps are still actually increasing the hop utilisation. By not chilling immediately after the boil are we actually exaggerating the hops bitterness/flavour?

I always assumed that the quick chilling was only for hygiene purposes. I assumed that once the hops are removed from the boiling wort, they are not contributing anything more.

Is that right, or am I off the mark on this one?

 

[jkmeldrum]

Yes


Yes. refer to the below graph. (Edit) Although it says boiling times, utilization will continue at temperatures above approx 75C

Another thought...

Going by this chart then, I would be be better just doing three hop additions throughout the boil, one at say 60mins for bittering, one at 20 mins for flavour and one at 10 mins for aroma given that this is when they are fully utilised. Are incremental adjustments at say 15mins and 5 mins a bit of a waste of hops then?

 

[mje1980]

There are so many different takes on this subject, you might be better trying it, and seeing for yourself. If you find it too bitter, or not bitter enough etc, adjust from there.

I dont change calcs at all for no chill, even for 10 min APA's. Come to think of it though, when i moved from chilling to no chilling, my immersion chiller took a good 40 mins to cool the wort down, so the hops may well be roughly at the same temp for the same time. I also aim for "medium" bitterness in most beers, and my 10 min beers are more about hoppy yum yum than high bitterness. Really, there are so many variables in everyones brewing that trial and error on your own system is probably the best way to go.

I might harp on a bit about it, but from a logical point of view i think trying the easiest thing first may well save a lot of stuffing around.

Let us know how it goes, and what works for you.

 

[maxymoo]

I've personally noticed a big improvements in my results since doing a 3 liter 'mini boil' with late hops the next day, I find it really gave me flavour/aroma without harshness that I hadn't been able to achieve with FWH and with "cube hops" (i actually just leave the wort in the pot overnight to cool). I don't find it too much of a hassle so I'm going to stick with that for now.

 

[felten]

Another thought...

Going by this chart then, I would be be better just doing three hop additions throughout the boil, one at say 60mins for bittering, one at 20 mins for flavour and one at 10 mins for aroma given that this is when they are fully utilised. Are incremental adjustments at say 15mins and 5 mins a bit of a waste of hops then?

Though it looks like it's scientific, the chart should not be taken as empirical data, it's just a very rough estimation.