Dunkelweizen Advice

[NeilArge]

G'day all

I have a weizen that I am about to bottle and I thought it would be opportune to drop a dunkelweizen on top of the WY3068 yeastcake. Here's the recipe. Advice keenly sought.
Recipe: Dumaresq Dunkelweizen
Batch Size: 23.00 L Boil Size: 26.33 L Estimated OG: 1.058
Estimated Color: 31.9 EBC Estimated IBU: 13.5 IBU Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 % Boil Time: 60 Minutes Ingredients:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.00 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) 52.63 %
1.75 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) 30.70 %
0.60 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) 10.53 %
0.20 kg Caramunich Malt 3.51 %
0.10 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) 1.75 %
0.05 kg Carafa I 0.88 %
28.30 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 13.5 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068)

Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 5.70 kg
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
20 min Ferulic Acid Rest Add 14.87 L of water at 48.3 C 45.0 C
60 min Saccharification Heat to 66.0 C over 15 min 66.0 C 10 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C

Ein prosit! :beer:

ToG

 

[mika]

To my mind that Grainbill looks like it's got everything but the kitchen sink thrown in it and I really couldn't see a good reason for it.
Then I went and had a quick look in here and was suprised to see Les the weizguy's recipe being so complicated as well. Maybe that's what I missed when I made mine ?
Either way, I'd be trying something a lot simpler and building it from there, or if you want complicated straight away go for Les's recipe.

 

[NeilArge]

To my mind that Grainbill looks like it's got everything but the kitchen sink thrown in it and I really couldn't see a good reason for it.
Then I went and had a quick look in here and was suprised to see Les the weizguy's recipe being so complicated as well. Maybe that's what I missed when I made mine ?
Either way, I'd be trying something a lot simpler and building it from there, or if you want complicated straight away go for Les's recipe.

Fair point, Mika. I was just testing with the choc. malt, but it probably doesn't really belong. Otherweise this is very close to one of Tony's recipes.

Cheers

ToG

 

[manticle]

Slight hijack so apologies. I'm looking at making a hefe soon (my first ag wheat attempt) but as a lover of darker beers, re-using the yeast for another version seems like a cracker of an idea. The tiny bit of reading I've done suggests vienna, munich and choc malts. My original recipe will be essentially a blend of pils and wheat malt (60/40 or 50/50). Anyone have suggestions of what quantities of the others would be good? From memory the yeast that I ordered was the same as above.

I'm thinking:

40% wheat
40% pilsner
8% munich
8% vienna
4% choc

Tett or hallertau for early hopping to around 15-18 ibu

Am I way off base?

 

[sav]

Heres mine dad loves it its nice not too roasty wont change a thing.


Recipe: 1 SAVS Dunkelweizen
Brewer: sav
Asst Brewer:
Style: Dunkelweizen
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Boil Size: 26.04 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 35.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 15.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.61 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (4.2 EBC) Grain 55.82 %
1.65 kg Pilsner (2 Row) UK (2.0 EBC) Grain 35.25 %
0.28 kg Caramunich Malt (90.0 EBC) Grain 5.88 %
0.14 kg Chocolate Wheat Malt (1100.0 EBC) Grain 3.05 %
16.50 gm Hallertauer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
0.29 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.16 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Yeast-Wheat

 

[Tony]

Dark wheat people................... weyermann dark wheat! Its the majic ingredient.

and Carawheat

and Chocolate Wheat

try about:

60% dark wheat
30% Pilsner
5% Carawheat
3% caramunich II
2% Chocolate Wheat

Sav.......... thats a 2 year old thread....... we have all leart a touch since then

 

[manticle]

Just ordered some weyerman's weizen dunkel. Didn't even know it existed prior to this thread.

Cheers

 

[sav]

I dont get it am I missing something tony
Sav.......... thats a 2 year old thread....... we have all leart a touch since then <_<

 

[NeilArge]

Slight hijack so apologies. I'm looking at making a hefe soon (my first ag wheat attempt) but as a lover of darker beers, re-using the yeast for another version seems like a cracker of an idea. The tiny bit of reading I've done suggests vienna, munich and choc malts. My original recipe will be essentially a blend of pils and wheat malt (60/40 or 50/50). Anyone have suggestions of what quantities of the others would be good? From memory the yeast that I ordered was the same as above.

I'm thinking:

40% wheat
40% pilsner
8% munich
8% vienna
4% choc

Tett or hallertau for early hopping to around 15-18 ibu

Am I way off base?

Onya manticle. It seems there's as many (if not more) recipes as there are brewers! I'm going to go minimalist for this recipe to see what happens but I love the look of Tony's almost all wheat recipe.

Cheers

ToG

 

[mika]

.......

I'm thinking:

40% wheat
40% pilsner
8% munich
8% vienna
4% choc

Tett or hallertau for early hopping to around 15-18 ibu

Am I way off base?

Why Vienna ?
As my personal taste, I kinda rate Munich and Vienna as the same thing (bear with me). They're the malt you throw in to get that nice malt background in a beer without using high mash temps or bucket loads of crystal, because you want to keep it drinkable. Of course the colour is the big difference, so I'd throw Vienna in a light coloured beer (Maibock) and I'd throw Munich in a dark coloured beer (Altbier). Munich to me is such a strong malt that it would drown out any Vienna thrown in alongside it, of course, YMMV.
Besides, what you're after here is a dark beer, so forget the light stuff. On that train of thought I'd also ditch the Pils, but that's down to personal preference.
If you're keen on using Choc Malt, would have to be the Pale Choc as well to keep well away from the Roasty and move a little more towards the Toasty, or even ditch the Choc and use a smidgen of Carafa Special if you're looking for that real dark colour. It's not jet black according to the style guidelines and I'd be a little suprised if the Munich Malt alone didn't get you into the ballpark.

 

[Tony]

Much appoligies sav...................... i punched in the wrong name.

I ment mika.

Edit: The dark Wheat gives the toasty character without the cloying maltiness from munich.

I do agree with your comments re: the 8% munich and vienna in the recipe........... they are base malts. it will make no real difference to the beer. Vienna is not far off pilsner malt and you wouldnt add 8% pils to a recupe would you? 30% vienna would be a better number. Use it as a replacement for pilsner malt.......... not an additive.

Carawheat is great as well. MHB described it to me as cocopops years ago and he wasn't far off......... its got a great dry toasty mild chocolate character that realy fits this style.

you can use a fair lump of it as well without drowning out other flavours.

They use it in Adventenius (speeling?)

cheers

 

[The Scientist]

I brewed the Dunkelweizen from Brewing Classic Styles a couple of weeks ago and it's been in the bottle for about 2 weeks now. While I think the recipe is fairly good, I really didn't get the esters I was after for the style. I fermented cold at 19C and its way too clean, with only minamal fruitiness.

Other than that the underlying beer has got a nice maltiness which pairs well with the creamy wheat texture.

So for people out there who want to achive a good example of this style I'd say your ferment / yeast choice is just as importaint as your grain bill. Esters make this beer what it should be IMO.

Cheers,

TS

 

[mika]

......... Esters make this beer what it should be IMO.....

For sure, and I've tried the colder ferment temps several times along with a 45deg ferulic acid rest and it still wasn't great.
Since going AG I've seriously made better tasting wheat beers with a kit. Next time I'm going to up the temps closer to 20-22 and see how I go. Maybe I'm looking for too much from the yeasts I'm using, or my palate isn't refined enough, but in my experience temps below 20 just don't work.

 

[manticle]

Why Vienna ?
As my personal taste, I kinda rate Munich and Vienna as the same thing (bear with me). They're the malt you throw in to get that nice malt background in a beer without using high mash temps or bucket loads of crystal, because you want to keep it drinkable. Of course the colour is the big difference, so I'd throw Vienna in a light coloured beer (Maibock) and I'd throw Munich in a dark coloured beer (Altbier). Munich to me is such a strong malt that it would drown out any Vienna thrown in alongside it, of course, YMMV.
Besides, what you're after here is a dark beer, so forget the light stuff. On that train of thought I'd also ditch the Pils, but that's down to personal preference.
If you're keen on using Choc Malt, would have to be the Pale Choc as well to keep well away from the Roasty and move a little more towards the Toasty, or even ditch the Choc and use a smidgen of Carafa Special if you're looking for that real dark colour. It's not jet black according to the style guidelines and I'd be a little suprised if the Munich Malt alone didn't get you into the ballpark.

I guess that's why I asked. I had a bit of a look around at some recipes and both were included. I've used munich a little bit in a couple of recent brews but I haven't used vienna yet. I do want to keep it simple and my idea was to base it around my hefe recipe but bringing in some malt for colour and choc flavours. I get a nice choc note from things like Erdinger dunkel and dunkel weizen.

If I were to rethink a little then I might look at:

47 weizen dunkel
47 Munich
3% choc or 3% carafa special (another I haven't used)
and 3%?

Thinking about 3% dingeman's biscuit for the extra toastiness you refer to or is it better just to stick with the three above and up the spec amounts to 6 (or go both at those levels)?

Sorry for the handholding. Obviously I can play around and tweak my own recipes but this helps further my knowledge.

 

[Pennywise]

For sure, and I've tried the colder ferment temps several times along with a 45deg ferulic acid rest and it still wasn't great.
Since going AG I've seriously made better tasting wheat beers with a kit. Next time I'm going to up the temps closer to 20-22 and see how I go. Maybe I'm looking for too much from the yeasts I'm using, or my palate isn't refined enough, but in my experience temps below 20 just don't work.

+1, I'm not an AG'er yet but I have made a few extract Dunkelweizens and every yeast I've used to make them really needs to be fermented at 21-22 to get those loverly esters, IMO anyway. I'm about to make a partial Dunkelweizen in the comming days with 3068 but going by the way the starter went it'll need a hell of alot of head space to ferment at 20-22 If you want to keep it contained. Mines a 25L batch and I'll be fermenting in a 60L fermenter.

 

[Swinging Beef]

To my mind that Grainbill looks like it's got everything but the kitchen sink thrown in it ...

Nope, looks good to me.
Only comment I would make is that I feel chocolate malt is a little too bitey and acidic for the darker wheats and would steer you toward dropping the chocolate and increasing your Carafa II to compensate.
Dunkelweisen and weisenbock are awesome!

 

[NeilArge]

Nope, looks good to me.
Only comment I would make is that I feel chocolate malt is a little too bitey and acidic for the darker wheats and would steer you toward dropping the chocolate and increasing your Carafa II to compensate.
Dunkelweisen and weisenbock are awesome!

Many thanks for the feedback, Swinging Beef. I feel that you are right about the choc. malt. If I had been a bit quicker I would have ordered some choc. wheat (and dark wheat) from Ross when I got a new false bottom sent down last week, but that's the way it goes. After posting that recipe up, I have had a few more searches about the place and have been amazed (but then again, this is home brew! ) at the diversity of opinion on dunkelweizen recipes. Some say, 'No way should there be crystal malt of any sort in this beer', others load it up with caramunich, Special B, biscuit malt and crystal malts of various hues and Lovibond ratings. That's not to say that everyone is right, of course. It's interesting to see how ideas have changed on this recipe on this forum over time. I enjoyed reading through the link that Mika inserted in his response to my first posting, and then seeing where the thinking is now. Great stuff.

Anyway, I'll post something up in a couple of months time to let you know what this version was like!

Cheers

ToG

 

[NeilArge]

I guess that's why I asked. I had a bit of a look around at some recipes and both were included. I've used munich a little bit in a couple of recent brews but I haven't used vienna yet. I do want to keep it simple and my idea was to base it around my hefe recipe but bringing in some malt for colour and choc flavours. I get a nice choc note from things like Erdinger dunkel and dunkel weizen.

If I were to rethink a little then I might look at:

47 weizen dunkel
47 Munich
3% choc or 3% carafa special (another I haven't used)
and 3%?

Thinking about 3% dingeman's biscuit for the extra toastiness you refer to or is it better just to stick with the three above and up the spec amounts to 6 (or go both at those levels)?

Sorry for the handholding. Obviously I can play around and tweak my own recipes but this helps further my knowledge.

Hi Manticle

Other recipes I have seen do use a bit of either pilsener or vienna malt plus carafa (I or II or both). Not sure whether biscuit malt would do the job for toastiness but here I would follow Tony's advice and go for some roasted wheat or similar. Following Swinging Beef's advice and my own gut instinct, I'm going to drop the choc. malt.

It's great to float ideas across this forum and cherry pick ideas and advice - it's not hand-holding at all.

best,

ToG

 

[manticle]

This is what I have come up with.

Critique and comments welcome.

Style: Dunkelweizen
Type: All grain
Size: 23 liters
Color:39 HCU (~18 SRM)
Bitterness: 19 IBU
OG: 1.051 FG: 1.010
Alcohol: 5.3% v/v (4.1% w/w)
Grain: 2.5kg Dark Wheat malt
2.5kg German Munich
200g Belgian biscuit
100g Carafa special
50g British chocolate
Mash: 70% efficiency
Boil: minutes SG 1.034 34 liters
Hops: 20g Hallertauer (5% AA, 60 min.)
15g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)

3068 recultured