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One thing that interests me though is that traditional water profiles are such because that what was available. Could you potentially make a stout BETTER by (for example) softening the water or using the water that's local to you? Does hard water by necessity make stout work better or just make emulation easier?
 
One thing that interests me though is that traditional water profiles are such because that what was available. Could you potentially make a stout BETTER by (for example) softening the water or using the water that's local to you? Does hard water by necessity make stout work better or just make emulation easier?

mate read john palmers info on residual alkalinity it basically says that there are certain beer colour's that certain water profiles can brew the carbonate's in dublin mean's that they needed the dark malts to drop the ph in the mash to be able to brew a good beer.
palmer's chapter on water chemistry can be a little daunting i keep on telling my self to sit down and read it from begining to end but i can't ill have to try again soon.

cheer's matho
 
Yeah I've glanced over that. Need to give it more time as water chemistry is something I'll be heading towards in the near future. Just been getting my head around AG mashing and soon about to attempt some decoction. WC is next.

However in Palmer it suggests that because of the water they had to use dark malts because light ones wouldn't convert due to water hardness. Likewise the soft water of pilsner might struggle to cope with the darker ones.

However my question is: while the dark malts are need for hard water, is hard water needed for dark malts?

Also I'm assuming they need to mash base malt as well as dark to make beer effectively but the dark malts just helped drop the pH.
 
One thing that interests me though is that traditional water profiles are such because that what was available. Could you potentially make a stout BETTER by (for example) softening the water or using the water that's local to you? Does hard water by necessity make stout work better or just make emulation easier?

That's a difficult question to answer, since it comes down to your own determination of what's best for you...for example, you might prefer to drink dark ales, stouts and porters that don't have a minerally flavour profile.

Many beers become famous because they are brewed the same way over decades or indeed, centuries, using the local water. As matho suggests, some compounds will change the mash pH which in turn will make subtle changes to the end product. For example, I use very soft water here in Canberra and I used to struggle getting a decent conversion with my stouts, porters, schwartzbiers etc. Then I fiddled with the mash pH by adding some Calcium Carbonate or Bicarb of Soda to push up the mash pH and I found I obtained significantly better conversion. That said, I never ever added any chemicals to my mashtun when I made pale ales and lagers thanks to the soft water - unless I wanted to try to emulate the waters of Dortmund etc etc. So, it was more a matter of knowing what I was making the beer with and adjusting the water profile - if I need to or could be bothered!

Although I had better conversions with my dark beers by chemically changing the mash pH, I'm not inferring that I necessarily made a better beer.

Getting back to your original question, I think it would be a pretty harsh judge who would criticise your stout on the basis of the water profile - assuming you aren't using foul water to begin with! With enough practice, it is possible to identify hops used in a beer (memories of an excellent evening at Ross's house many moons ago readily come to mind!) and in some cases, the yeast strain, but water chemistry is possibly a bridge too far!!

In my particular instance, I do find my stouts are better when I treat my water, but that's only because my water is so soft and the darker grists seem to do better in the mashtun when I add a teaspoon or so of the right compound. That may not necessarily apply to fellow brewers in Adelaide, or Perth or Melbourne etc etc...And lets face it, you can have the best water profile in the universe and easily stuff up a batch with crap yeast, or stale hops etc etc, so it gets back to my original mantra - fresh ingredients, temperature control and patience! Sounds like a new album title from the Foo Fighters!! :p

Cheers,
TL
 
I think melbourne water is supposed to be pretty soft also. haven't examined it but something I recall suggests it's actually very similar to Plzen.

Only done one AG stout. Came out great to my tastes and others but I will only really be able to tell when I start playing around with water additions and do one with and one without for comparison.

It's a subject that interests me but has been one of those bits of technical knowledge that I've put aside until I'm happpy with my more basic processes.

How does water differ for say RIS or baltic porter and Dry Irish stout?
 
And fourstar, can you recommend a water profile for me? I'll pm you the adelaide water profile thingo.
Happy to. ;)

However my question is: while the dark malts are need for hard water, is hard water needed for dark malts?

Simple way of looking at it. Residual Alkalinity will determine the colour of your beer. Low or Calcium HARD water with no alkalinity, very light beers. Excessive alkalinity compared to hardness = Darkest beers.

You actually need unbalanced alkaline rich water(HCO3) or a higher alkalinity than permanent hardness (Ca and Mg) for the dark malts to buffer the alkalinity and vice verca. If you have balanced Alkalinity (HCO3) and permanent hardness(CA and Mg), it is possible to brew lightish beers as famously shown by burton water profiles being rich in Ca, Mg, HCO3. With these balanced minerals you have got balanced mineral rich water which is perfect for british IPAs and bitters. Also thrown in is a big whack of SO4 for the hoppiness (SO4, Cl and Na do not effect the balancing act). Another profile similar to Bruton is Dortmund. See link to give you an idea. http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-2.html

A good rule of thumb (i find) is to have double the HCO3 content of Ca and Mg combined (mg not so much but Ca:HCO3 ratio 1:2) to brew dark/black beers such as stouts, RIS, Porters etc. Lighter beers or amber beers you can get away with a balanced profile or slightly alkaline ratio 2:3. Also, no matter how dark the beer is, there is no real need to surpass 250ppm of HCO3 as there is only so much buffering the malt can do with the alkalinity and hardness.

I think melbourne water is supposed to be pretty soft also. haven't examined it but something I recall suggests it's actually very similar to Plzen.

How does water differ for say RIS or baltic porter and Dry Irish stout?

Yep, thats correct we have SFA minerals in our water like Plzen (if you are using mains water of course, not bore water.)

For our purposes, water for a RIS or Irish will probabaly only differ for the flavouring minerals, SO4, Cl and Na. I think i read somewhere recently high amounts of S04 and a high RA can cause harsh bitterness. Will have ot doube check that however.
 
Might be worth splitting this thread in two as its almost entirely moved onto water chemistry now...
 
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