Do Phenolics Dissipate With Ageing?

[manticle]

It could be due to an infection (in which case I guess the flavour will get stronger rather than weaker) but there's a hint of medicine/clove in my about to be bottled brew.

If it's due to chlorephenols, will it dissipate given enough ageing time or is it there to stay?

I use bleach/vinegar for sanitaion although I'm usually fairly cautious in rinsing with hot water afterwards then again with sodium met solution. However the sod met is rinsed with cold tap water right before use. I've done this a fair few times and had no other brew taste this way but it seems a potential culprit nonetheless.

 

[haysie]

I have that medicinal thing before, terrible. Wild yeast.

 

[manticle]

From what I read it can be due to a number of things - chlorine being one of them, yeast being another and various bacterial infections another.

Just wondering which bit of my sanitation regime needs changing and if this brew has any chance of improving.

 

[haysie]

Bandaid, clove, medicinal all leads too wild yeast. No repair! It wont get better, dont bottle any of it. Cleaning regime would have zero effect, albeit you way over do it.

 

[Adamt]

If you're not using a yeast designed to create phenolics (e.g. a weizen yeast), it's an infection. Phenols are clove/spicy, medicinal/bandaid are chlorophenols, where the phenols have reacted with chlorine present in your beer.

Chlorophenols have a MUCH lower taste threshold than the chlorine, if you haven't changed anything in your brewing technique I would guess the chlorine is nothing to worry about, the phenols (from the apparent infection) are the underlying issue.

If you're bottling it I agree with haysie, don't bother as it will get worse! Though if you can keg and keep it cold it won't get much worse (if you can stomach it now).

 

[manticle]

It was US05 so no: phenols are not an expected product. My girlfriend (unprompted) tasted cloves, I taste bandaids.

The technique was different to my usual - apart from anything else it was a no-chill (something I've never done before) but it was done properly by someone experienced so I think it's a fermentation issue.

I don't keg but it's only a half batch so I may experiement with bottling nonetheless. I have plenty of bottles and plenty of caps so no harm done. I just won't expect too much. Throwing away beer makes my head hurt (although if you are right and it stays or gets stronger after a couple of weeks then I'll have no choice - I don't like drinking band-aids.)

If it is infected it's my first all brew infection.

 

[goatherder]

From what I read it can be due to a number of things - chlorine being one of them, yeast being another and various bacterial infections another.

Just wondering which bit of my sanitation regime needs changing and if this brew has any chance of improving.

Regardless of whether the taint is due to infection or your sanitising products, you ought to consider changing your sanitation regime.

Bleach & vinegar is a very effective sanitiser, there is no doubt about that. As you are clearly aware, it does need rinsing after use to remove the awful smell & taste which it imparts into your very absorbent plastic fermenters. Once you rinse (even with hot water), you are putting microflora from the rinsing water back into the fermenter, rendering it no longer sanitised. The followup rinse with sodium met is not helping you either - sodium met needs to completely dry before it sanitises properly and you get left with the residue. You mentioned you rinse this too, but again, you are only as sanitary as the last thing which contacts your equipment. Also, sodium met is not too kind to your respiratory system.

My advice would be to invest in some Starsan. It is a no-rinse sanitisers which you can spray onto clean equipment a few minutes before you use it. There's no need to rinse, as there is no flavour imparted to the beer when it is used at the correct dilution rates. Less work and better results. It costs a little more than the options you are using at the moment, but it is still very cheap. A $20 bottle will last years.

Also, my experience with overly phenolic beers (clove-like) has been that they don't fade in time. Sorry.

 

[manticle]

Came across starsan recently and it's likely I'll be getting some soon. Looks the goods.

In regards to the sod met - I do empty and let stand for a minimum of one hour before rinsing and the sanitation and subsequent rinsing is always done directly before use so I'm fairly certain there's no time for anything to grow.

The reason I thought it may be chlorephenols due to something apart from infection is that I've tasted a bandaid infected brew and the flavour was far stronger than this. Mine is a subtle aftertaste rather than overpowering. At the moment it can be drunk rather than spat - it's just offputting in the same way acetyladehyde can be. Since everything about the brew was different to normal (brewed off premises on a different system, first no-chill) I'm trying to work out which part of the process it came from.

Anyway starsan is on the list.

 

[jayse]

Came across starsan recently and it's likely I'll be getting some soon. Looks the goods.

In regards to the sod met - I do empty and let stand for a minimum of one hour before rinsing and the sanitation and subsequent rinsing is always done directly before use so I'm fairly certain there's no time for anything to grow.

The reason I thought it may be chlorephenols due to something apart from infection is that I've tasted a bandaid infected brew and the flavour was far stronger than this. Mine is a subtle aftertaste rather than overpowering. At the moment it can be drunk rather than spat - it's just offputting in the same way acetyladehyde can be. Since everything about the brew was different to normal (brewed off premises on a different system, first no-chill) I'm trying to work out which part of the process it came from.

Anyway starsan is on the list.

Napisan is good for the cleaning and then starsan.
The phenols could have potentialy come from a few different sources, what is the water like? If your water already tastes of bandaids you'd be in trouble
The role water alone can play ismassive
Combined with water and maybe a overcrush and/or over sparge you could get phenols and chlorophenols in beer.
You can easily take chlorine out of the picture but you can't as easily nail down the source of the phenols without disecting everything a bit more and tasting the beer.
Wild yeast would be the most likely suspect because if it was malt, water or bad mashing techniquie it would show to varying degrees in other of your beers.
That article there sites some breweries with ongoing similiar phenols in all beers and the breweries themselves at the time put it down to acceptable house character.

Even if the bandaid flavour does not get any worse it won't fade, only the beer underneath will fade. So if it is not drinkable now its not worth bottling.
Hopefully it doesn't happen again.

 

[HoppingMad]

Mants you've mentioned using sodium met on a couple of threads - know you are meticulous on your sterilising regime from what you've said here and previously, but more and more I'm seeing info out there pushing sodium percarbonate over sodium met for sterilising (I'm not a chemist so can't tell you why). I gave my last jar of sodium met away as have been reading more and more about people favouring percarb over met.

Examples like this - from the coopers homebrew website:

Coopers Sanitiser contains Sodium Percarbonate, an environmentally friendly cleaner/sanitiser for Home Brew equipment, which is more effective and safer than Sodium Metabisulphite.

Source: Bottom of page

Sodium Percarbonate is available in sachels at most home brew stores (The much maligned Brewcraft seems to favour these too h34r. Alternately save some dough and get some home brand napisan (unscented). You'll note the active ingredient on the side of both Napisan and home brand is sodium percarb (I've found the Safeway Select unscented stuff actually has more active ingredient than Napisan does and a tub of this goes a long way).

Anyhow sorry - don't want to kick you while you're down, is a bugger of a thing to have happen - I hate tipping brews myself, but maybe rethink using the met. Or make sure a healthy dose of hot water from the kettle gets applied in between your bleach and vinegar routine.

All the best on the next one,

Hopper.

 

[DJR]

Sodium Percarbonate isn't a full sanitiser. Use the starsan, Iodophor or if you are game some Phosphoric Acid. Sodium Percarb is a good cleaner but doesn't kill effectively enough to sanitise.

It's only a matter of time i reckon before people that use Sodium Met get an infection...

 

[manticle]

Sodium Percarbonate isn't a full sanitiser.

Yes, I was under the impression it was used for cleaning, not sanitation.

 

[bconnery]

If you have a wild yeast infection then chances are it has come in from a source external to the equipment.
If this is the case your choice of sanitiser makes absolutely sfa difference as the infection comes in during the brewing process.

I have issues with wild yeast infections at certain times of the year when the environment in which I brew becomes laden with various fruiting and flowering trees.
It's an annoying thing because you can change nothing in terms of process between brews and one will be fine and the other will get that taste and be good only for tipping.

I use napisan for cleaning and starsan for sanitation, I was using iodophor before that, and it doesn't make any difference.
Following the advice of another brewer who had lots of wild yeast issues I have changed my process, not sanitising routine, and have had no issues since.

I don't know for sure if this is what you have, and choosing an appropriate cleaning/sanitising combination is essential regardless, but if it is wild yeast then you need a process change, not an product one.

I now essentially chill in the fermenter, transferring to the closed container while the wort is over 70C, usually around the 80 mark. Then it goes into the brew fridge and cools overnight.

 

[brendo]

In an effort to help out Manticle, I will put my hand up as the Brewer of the beer that he is currently having trouble with.

I followed the same process I have for quite a few brews now, and I haven't picked up anything noticeable in any batches to date - in fact Manticle sampled a few of these batches during the brew day.

With respect to wild yeast - all of the beer brewed that day was no chilled - into cubes at around 90 degrees - so if at the brewing end of things I would be surprised if they had been able to survive such an environment.

Sparging temps was pretty much the same as always - around the 74-76 degree mark - again, not a problem I have come across with other brews using this process.

One thing I could put it down to as a possibility was a water addition of 40ml (to 40l) of Calcium Chloride (stock solution of 100g packet of CaCl2 to 540ml of water) which should have resulted in a profile of 50 ppm Ca2+ and 90 ppm Cl (the water was also pre-filtered). However, I have done the same with another beer recently and sampling that on the weekend, again I couldn't detect anything.

My share of the wort that Manticle fermented is about a week behind his (just finishing primary). I took a hydro sample yesterday and couldn't detect anything in there - but it is potentially a bit early in the process anyway. Supra-Jim also has some of this wort... but the lazy bugger hasn't fermented his yet, so we can't yet do a three-way comparison to help Manticle out.

Hopefully this helps out with some of the "brewing process" questions that have been thrown up.

Cheers,

Brendo

 

[reviled]

THrow some brett in and leave it for a year, it might be savable!!

 

[HoppingMad]

Yes, I was under the impression it was used for cleaning, not sanitation.

Spot on. I'm suggesting you ditch the met and use percarb for cleaning. Plenty of info (and DJR agrees), that met is substandard.
Your choice though - just a variable that could go wrong for you.

That said I'm still scratching my head as to how you could get an infection after using bleach/vinegar. Might be the environment as BC suggests - or some gunk caught in a tap/fermenter rim where your sanitation couldn't go. A weird one.

Hopper.

Edit - Just read Brendo's post. Sounds like the cube is the culprit. But will be interesting to see the results of the beers from Brendo and Jim to see if they have the same issue. A 90 degree transfer should have killed the nasties dead. :huh:

 

[Supra-Jim]

Oh God, now I've been totally outed as the lazy one!!!!! Thanks Brendo

Must at all costs get this cube into a fermenter tonight!!!!!

Sanitation regime will get a double up just to make sure.

Not sure how tyhe water additions could impart the flavours described, though if anyone can explain how or why this might be the case, I love to listen (cos apparently i'm too lazy to get my arse into gear!)

Cheers SJ

 

[brendo]

Edit - Just read Brendo's post. Sounds like the cube is the culprit. But will be interesting to see the results of the beers from Brendo and Jim to see if they have the same issue. A 90 degree transfer should have killed the nasties dead. :huh:

I guess the other issue there was that it was a brand new cube for Manticle - one of those 25l jerry cans - which are not as easy to expel the air out of as my preferred 20l cubes. The volumes were a bit low for the cubes since it was a 3 way split, so there could be some potential there for too much headspace (?)

 

[brendo]

Oh God, now I've been totally outed as the lazy one!!!!! Thanks Brendo

Must at all costs get this cube into a fermenter tonight!!!!!

Sanitation regime will get a double up just to make sure.

Not sure how tyhe water additions could impart the flavours described, though if anyone can explain how or why this might be the case, I love to listen (cos apparently i'm too lazy to get my arse into gear!)

Cheers SJ

You are welcome SJ... sometimes shame is the best weapon to get someone moving.

On the water additions - not saying it is the culprit - just trying to put all the cards down on the table to help Manticle out.

Brendo

 

[chappo1970]

If you have a wild yeast infection then chances are it has come in from a source external to the equipment.
If this is the case your choice of sanitiser makes absolutely sfa difference as the infection comes in during the brewing process.

I have issues with wild yeast infections at certain times of the year when the environment in which I brew becomes laden with various fruiting and flowering trees.
It's an annoying thing because you can change nothing in terms of process between brews and one will be fine and the other will get that taste and be good only for tipping.

I use napisan for cleaning and starsan for sanitation, I was using iodophor before that, and it doesn't make any difference.
Following the advice of another brewer who had lots of wild yeast issues I have changed my process, not sanitising routine, and have had no issues since.

I don't know for sure if this is what you have, and choosing an appropriate cleaning/sanitising combination is essential regardless, but if it is wild yeast then you need a process change, not an product one.

I now essentially chill in the fermenter, transferring to the closed container while the wort is over 70C, usually around the 80 mark. Then it goes into the brew fridge and cools overnight.

+1

I have suffered the same problem from Wild Yeast infections and follow bconnery's process to a tee. Since doing so I have been infection free for the last 3 beers (crossed fingers).


BTW Manticle it does not better or go away as other have already said trust me it just gets worse. I think the other thing is your mind is looking for it and if there is a hint you'll detect it. Throw it and live another day.

Cheers

Chappo