Concealed Crown Urn - Low Watt Density Element Option?

[sluggerdog]

Hey All,

I've started to get burning issues with my brew day on the concealed element of my crown urn. From some searching around it seems it is most likely to do with the high watt element that comes with a crown urn and the lower mashing temperatures.

Many have reported they get burning issues if they do a protein rest, yesterday however I got burning issues with my steps starting at 60c.

My brew day yesterday which resulted in a burnt element (concealed case):

60c Mash In
63c for 50 mins
72c for 20 mins
78c for 10 mins - Mash Out

90 min boil

NOTE: This is recirculating BIAB with a Braudino Controller, Bottom and top Return.

In the past I have brewed may times with a simple 63c for 75 min and 78 for 10 mins without burning issues. The 3 degrees from 60 to 63 while I mash in couldn't be the issue could it?

So what I am wondering is has anyone ever been able to upgrade the urns element to something with more low watt density. Ideally I would like to replace the element within the concealed area however I guess as a last resort I could drill another hole and put in a new element ignoring the current one but I was hoping for a better solution.

Thanks

 

[MastersBrewery]

QldKev would have a better idea on this, but I'd say possibly as mentioned in the other thread directing some flow over the element may help solve this, good luck with it mate, you will get there!
(note Kev uses a brau controller on his 1v)

 

[sluggerdog]

QldKev would have a better idea on this, but I'd say possibly as mentioned in the other thread directing some flow over the element may help solve this, good luck with it mate, you will get there!
(note Kev uses a brau controller on his 1v)

Maybe / hopefully that's all I need, thanks.

I am currently running with this:

Next brew I will trial this:

 

[MastersBrewery]

I would in your case remove the pump from the controller and run it constantly or in setup choose the option to only fire the element when the pump is running.

 

[MHB]

You could install an SSR voltage regulator, it would allow you to turn down the element in effect lowering the heat density.
I realise that wont help during the boil but it would help a lot during mashing which is when I suspect you are building up a layer of protein and large complex sugars/soluble starch that is then burning on. Ideally by the time you get to the end of the mash cycle most of these will have been degraded to smaller less complex products. These are less likely to stick on and burn when you crank the element back up to full power for the boil.

Mark

 

[sluggerdog]

I would in your case remove the pump from the controller and run it constantly or in setup choose the option to only fire the element when the pump is running.

Just looking at the ardbir manual now, it seems I cannot set the pump to have no rest, I guess the best option is to have the pump cycle at 15 mins and the pump rest at 1 minute.

I couldn't see a setting to only fire the element when the pump was running though?

 

[MastersBrewery]

check with Lael, zwitter, as I dont use the setting but I think it's the "external sensor" setting.

cheers
MB

 

[sluggerdog]

So a quick update. I changed my pump to run constantly for the whole mash and boil. I also updated the return arm so it was constantly flowing over the concealed element.

I still got element burn (see below photo for the burnt area and the new bottom return)

The burn each of the 3 times I have tried now has been in that same area of element (not on one of the sides, just on the return arm side). Any chance it could be something wrong with the cover in that spoint? Aomething I have scratched or similar? It looks fine once I go at it with vinegar to get the burn off again / no scratching can be seen. I would have thought for sure this return would have been enough flow to prevent burning on the element.

Same brew steps as the other few times, just different return and pump / heat configurations trying to nail down the issue. This time the burn was less the the others (the crown urn didn't kick in and out during the boil like the other times so it is improving but not enough).

60c Mash In
63c for 50 mins
72c for 20 mins
78c for 10 mins - Mash Out
90 min boil


I'm not sure what I can try next, I guess I could try mashing 65/66, 72 and 78 however I never used to have issues at 63 until the last 3 brews. Ideally I want to be able to mash with the steps the Braudino controller allows me. Anyone else using an urn with a controller that may be able to offer some advise?

Thanks

 

[sluggerdog]

You could install an SSR voltage regulator, it would allow you to turn down the element in effect lowering the heat density.
I realise that wont help during the boil but it would help a lot during mashing which is when I suspect you are building up a layer of protein and large complex sugars/soluble starch that is then burning on. Ideally by the time you get to the end of the mash cycle most of these will have been degraded to smaller less complex products. These are less likely to stick on and burn when you crank the element back up to full power for the boil.

Mark

Revisiting this idea. Would this be different to the controllers ssr we already have in place with my braudino controller?

I'm wondering if the controllers settings could be adjusted to try and mimick a lower heat density as suggested?

Thanks

 

[SBOB]

Revisiting this idea. Would this be different to the controllers ssr we already have in place with my braudino controller?

I'm wondering if the controllers settings could be adjusted to try and mimick a lower heat density as suggested?

Thanks

The setting for PWM does this during the boil, but not sure during ramp stages
"PWM : 0-100: Heating power percentage applied to heating element during boil"

 

[sluggerdog]

The setting for PWM does this during the boil, but not sure during ramp stages
"PWM : 0-100: Heating power percentage applied to heating element during boil"

Thanks, I'll try lowering this. I'm using 100 at the moment however I'm thinking the issue happens during the mash more then the boil. I've used the urn for 2 years now with full power 90 min boil without issue.

Maybe the pid settings could be tweaked to lower the power density?

I'm currently using:

KP: 100
KI: 30
KD: 4
Sample Time: 3500
Window Time: 7500

Thanks

 

[Major Arcana]

Bit off topic but with these recipes were you using a lot of Rye? I also have a concealed 40L Crown Urn and every now and then i may get a slight bit of burnt shit on the element but not often. The main cause i found which was absolutely horrible was recipes with a lot of Rye. It caked up so much on the element and burnt that it literally would stop the boil.

 

[Wapehawi]

Haven't used rye yet, but any of my recipes with wheat in them also build up on the element of the crown urn. I now use my plastic paddle to scrape the element after mashout.

 

[sluggerdog]

No rye was used. About 10% wheat in 2 of the 3 I have burnt in the last few weeks. The latest was 100% bb pale malt, still burnt.

Thanks

 

[SBOB]

Maybe the pid settings could be tweaked to lower the power density?

I'm currently using:

KP: 100
KI: 30
KD: 4
Sample Time: 3500
Window Time: 7500

Thanks

The PID settings simply determine (in simple terms) how quickly the controller tries to get to the target temperature, but whenever its 'active' you are still getting 100% power to your element

 

[Pogierob]

Have you contacted crown directly, I found them quite helpful when I blew my element.

http://crownindustries.com.au/spares.php

 

[Rocker1986]

I have no pumps set up in my urn but I find a stainless steel wire brush rather helpful in this regard. I've only noticed this shit build up lately on mine as well, although it coincided with getting a false bottom so I didn't have to raise the bag to do a mash out (probably insignificant). It looks very similar to that photo after the boil, whereas previously it was more of a thin trub looking layer, not dark. I've also noted that I am getting more trub post boil than previously so I wonder if it's just this particular batch of malt I'm using at the moment as well.

Last brew day on Saturday I just did a single infusion mash about 66, ramped up to 78 for mash out, then removed the bag and false bottom, gave the element a scrubbing with the wire brush, and then boiled it for about 90 minutes without it cutting out, but still had this ring of burnt on shit there. The overall process worked much better although the malt bill was smaller than usual so probably less crap floating around in the first place. I have had a couple of boils cut in and out recently.

 

[anthonyUK]

The only issue I have found to the scorching is to vorlauf and unless your grain is slightly compacted you won't get any filtering from it.
Short answer is to get the powder off the element rather than try to reduce the element power.

 

[sluggerdog]

I have no pumps set up in my urn but I find a stainless steel wire brush rather helpful in this regard. I've only noticed this shit build up lately on mine as well, although it coincided with getting a false bottom so I didn't have to raise the bag to do a mash out (probably insignificant). It looks very similar to that photo after the boil, whereas previously it was more of a thin trub looking layer, not dark. I've also noted that I am getting more trub post boil than previously so I wonder if it's just this particular batch of malt I'm using at the moment as well.

Last brew day on Saturday I just did a single infusion mash about 66, ramped up to 78 for mash out, then removed the bag and false bottom, gave the element a scrubbing with the wire brush, and then boiled it for about 90 minutes without it cutting out, but still had this ring of burnt on shit there. The overall process worked much better although the malt bill was smaller than usual so probably less crap floating around in the first place. I have had a couple of boils cut in and out recently.

This is sounding very similar to me. This weeks trial I plan to use a bigw pot instead of a bag so when I remove it I can try and clean the element as best I can (while the wort is still in there) just to free anything off of it. When I use the bag the false bottom is still in place for the whole boil, It would be hard to remove this. With the big w pot no false bottom required so I cen get my whisk in and shake things up between mash and boil.

Have you found the burnt element is coming though in the final beer? I am yet to have finished fermenting one of the burnt beers yet, initial tastes seem ok so I am hoping I haven't burnt it enough each time to ruin all 3 brews.

 

[Rocker1986]

I've just got a long stainless steel rod that is bent at one end that I use to fish out the false bottom. I have to blindly move it around but I can feel it when it hooks into one of the holes on the side of the false bottom then I simply lift it out.

I haven't found the burnt flavour coming through in the final beer though, no. A number of those batches were pilsners too where it would probably be noticeable more so than in my usual pale or red ales. I'm guessing if it tastes ok now it should continue to do so.