Coarser Crush To Increase Efficiency?

[3G]

HI All

Does any one know if a coarser crush will increase efficiency? I crush very fine and end up with a good 10mm of flour slime on top of the mash and this causes the liquid to run down the sides of the tun.
Cheers

 

[mje1980]

I think it goes the other way, the finer the crush, the better efficiency, but i could be wrong. Definately known to happen

 

[Kleiny]

The finer the crush the better efficiency and there obviously is a point at which you will run into stuck sparge.

However the flour style crust on top of your mash should just be broken up. I use a knife and just run it through the top of my mash to allow the sparge water through.

Also the finer the crush the more damage you are likely to do the husk which will also have an effect on runoff and can have an effect bringing is husk tannin flavours.

 

[3G]

Yes, that is the general consensis, i know alot of brewers were playing with a very coarse crush and floating their mash. I think the flour on top is causing channeling and this is why i am contemplating a coarser crush to avoid this. I may try stiring alot less also.

 

[Screwtop]

I may try stiring alot less also.

Works for me, gentle stir at dough-in then leave it alone, greater eff too.

Disclaimer: From experience using my system

 

[reviled]

Works for me, gentle stir at dough-in then leave it alone, greater eff too.

Disclaimer: From experience using my system

Yeah I only stir at dough in and mash out as well..

 

[MHB]

One of the things I love about brewing is that the "Right" answer to a lot of questions is a resounding - Maybe!



Obviously in this case there is too fine and too coarse and somewhere in-between the happy medium that works best for you/me on our own system nothing to say the sweet spot is going to be the same for everyone.



When crushing grain there are some rules that help us decide what works best for us.

On any given mill: -

Finer: - higher extract, slower lautering, more degraded husks and risk of tannins.

Coarser: - lower extract, faster lautering (not always a good thing) and less risk of tannins.



One of the big and often forgotten factors is the size of the rollers in the mill, generally the bigger the rollers the less damage is done to the husks (its called Nip Angle theory if you want to look it up). A 1 mm setting on a mill with 50 mm rollers will give a lot more flour than the same setting on a mill with 200 mm rolls. That's without taking into account the damage done by the knurling or fluting on the rollers.



There will always be a trade off just have to find the one you can live with.



MHB

 

[technocat]

Works for me, gentle stir at dough-in then leave it alone, greater eff too.

Disclaimer: From experience using my system

I find that comment interesting. I have crushed down fine and ended up with stuck sparges. So have found the happy medium with my crush to keep everything working but still struggle to get efficiency up into the low 70's. I do stir along the way but from whats being said I should leave alone. I will try this next brew day. How do some guys get up into the eighties. :angry:

 

[reviled]

How do some guys get up into the eighties. :angry:

BIAB for me with a simple sparge step B)

 

[TidalPete]

I find that comment interesting. I have crushed down fine and ended up with stuck sparges. So have found the happy medium with my crush to keep everything working but still struggle to get efficiency up into the low 70's. I do stir along the way but from whats being said I should leave alone. I will try this next brew day. How do some guys get up into the eighties. :angry:

If you are getting stuck sparges try a slower runoff (less than a litre\minute) as well as the above. Keep your crush as fine as possible.

TP

Edit ---- I do a short (20 min) protein rest every brew although some might disagree with this?

 

[Screwtop]

I find that comment interesting. I have crushed down fine and ended up with stuck sparges. So have found the happy medium with my crush to keep everything working but still struggle to get efficiency up into the low 70's. I do stir along the way but from whats being said I should leave alone. I will try this next brew day. How do some guys get up into the eighties. :angry:

Light stir at dough-in just enough to mix, short protien rest, light stir after raising to mash-out and slow sparge, always between 80% - 88% mash efficiency.

Disclaimer: Using my system

 

[Tony M]

Yeah I only stir at dough in and mash out as well..

As MHB says there is as many answers as there are brewers on this forum. I keep my mash turning over for the full duration and usually have a negative starch test by 40 minutes with efficiency in the low eighties using a two hit batch sparge.

 

[clean brewer]

Screwy,

You really need to put that Disclaimer into your Signature.. It will save a bit of typing..

DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to an Opinion, but any Opinions I give are soley based on my System and if you dont like my Opinions based on my System, go to Rule Nos. 2!! :icon_cheers:

 

[white.grant]

Then there is the floating mash which has its adherrents, linky

cheers

grant

 

[Cortez The Killer]

I use a knife and just run it through the top of my mash to allow the sparge water through.

Thanks for that tip Kleiny

Tried it yesterday and my tun drained fully rather than losing some wort on top of the grain bed

I've always just stared at it thinking there must be something I can do but it never clicked

Cheers

 

[matti]

The most important thing with crushing the grain is to ensure you achieve maximum exposure of the starch and remain a good filtering by retaining the husks intact.

The better roller you have the better result you achieve.

I have to be very careful crushing the grains too fine as my Barley crusher tends to tear the husks apart if I go too fast.

During batch sparging, the mash gets stirred a couple of times and it depends on your equipment how fine you you can crush with out getting stuck sparges.

I have a false bottom and fly sparge mostly and find that I can get 75-80% Efficiencies without stirring at all.
My last batch I step-mashed and stirred a lot and got +80% Efficiency.

I am talking Brewhouse efficiency.
From Grain to finished beer here.

 

[rich_lamb]

I find that comment interesting. I have crushed down fine and ended up with stuck sparges. So have found the happy medium with my crush to keep everything working but still struggle to get efficiency up into the low 70's. I do stir along the way but from whats being said I should leave alone. I will try this next brew day. How do some guys get up into the eighties. :angry:

Beernut, your efficiency is more than just the crush, and in any event isn't that important (the last thing I'd want is a floury crush to increase efficiency).
If your efficiency is low and you are concerned, measure your final runnings (gravity and maybe pH). It's more to do with how much you are sparging. Most guys are pretty happy with 75% and I was happy with 64% until I moved into a bigger kettle, and found I could just sparge more as I was throwing away quite a bit of good beer in my spent grains. And loving it.

 

[warrenlw63]

I moved into a bigger kettle, and found I could just sparge more as I was throwing away quite a bit of good beer in my spent grains. And loving it.

+1 This helps a lot.

Warren -

 

[PostModern]

Beernut, your efficiency is more than just the crush, and in any event isn't that important (the last thing I'd want is a floury crush to increase efficiency).
If your efficiency is low and you are concerned, measure your final runnings (gravity and maybe pH). It's more to do with how much you are sparging. Most guys are pretty happy with 75% and I was happy with 64% until I moved into a bigger kettle, and found I could just sparge more as I was throwing away quite a bit of good beer in my spent grains. And loving it.

The bolded text above is what it's all about. Coarse milling on its own won't improve efficiency. Coarse crack with a slow fly sparge will give good efficiency. Read the whole thread Grantw linked. Coarse crack + floating mash + slow sparge gives great efficiency, assuming of course you have enough calcium in your liquor and a good mash pH.

 

[Fourstar]

I like the way MHB put it.

A finer grind wont necessarily increase your efficiency. It will however, speed up conversion time. The same thing can be achieved with a coarser grind via other variables such as a higher mash temperature and/or a longer mash with a coarser grind. Confused?

Efficncy wont mean squat with a finer grind if you cant get all of those sugars out of your mash tun. the correct manifold for the mash tun, minimal tunneling and the correct sparge method will yeild optimum results. Palmer did a good talk in this recently on basic brewing radio. look it up.

For my system if the grind is coarse, i found stirring the mash tun every 20 mins, to 'loosen' the broken grain up and remove it from the husk has increased my efficiency by around 3-4% with no other changes made. Horses for courses. if i can consistently get 70% brewhouse efficiency, so be it. if it drops back to 65... i wont mind either. As long as im achieveing my target OG and final volume thats all i ever care about.