Bitterness post-boil

[TheWiggman]

I've recently done a custom recipe with about 4.7kg of grains and had the following hop schedule:

40g willamette at 60min (4.6% AA), all flowers
20g EKG at 10 mins (4.8% pellets and 5.1% flowers 50/50)

Chilled with an immersion chiller immediately down to 40°C.

Going to dry hop as well with 20 of fuggles in the fermenter after a few days.
Ended up with 25l in fermenter at OG 1.047. Supposed to be 1.050 but didn't drop off as much as thought during the boil.

Pre-boil is tasted phenomenally good. Post boil it has a tart bitterness to it that's not overly pleasant. I did a CSA recipe a few weeks back and noted the same bitterness 'taste' but it was much more pronounced. It's tapered off after a few weeks but still more bitter than it should be. This was no-chilled and I attributed it to that.

Question is - is this expected? Is the taste into the fermenter a good indication of bitterness down the line? I can easily modify my hop additions to suit but I see no reason why my boil process would be any different to anyone else's.

 

[manticle]

Did you mean pre ferment and post ferment or pre-boil and post boil?

Post boil you'll get the isomerisation/dissolution of alpha acids adding bitterness.

Post ferment you'll get more pronounced bitterness due to sweet sugar being transformed into alcohol, co2, etc. Bitterness can also relate to various hop resins, tannins, etc but pre-ferment wort will be different from post. An indication possibly but too many changes occur to give a totally accurate picture.

 

[TheWiggman]

Pre-boil and post-boil. Tasted in the fermenter prior to adding yeast. Only did it yesterday so obviously no indications of change, but it tasted a hell of a lot better before it was boiled. I would have imagined the hops add flavour, not take it away. But obviously they add bitterness (depending on when added of course).

 

[manticle]

I'm confused. You're wondering why wort is more bitter after you've added hops and boiled it?

Alpha acids being isomerised and dissolved into solution.

 

[indica86]

Hops add flavour and bitterness. The bitterness balances the sweetness from the malt, then you get beer.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Wiggman, mate have a read of this http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-1.html

 

[elcarter]

Just did a theoretical calculation of your expected IBU for that beer when chilled is around 24 IBU's maybe less due to the use of flowers.

If you went the no chill option it would be around 28 IBU's.

Looks like an English ale from the hop schedule, so the ibu value for that styles's spot on.

 

[citizensnips]

Pre boil shouldn't necessarily taste phenomenal good unless you like sugary malty goodness. Without being a smart ass I'm guessing your aware that hops primary purpose is to add bitterness to a beer and balance it against the sweetness of malt. Of course they do a lot more with regard to different additions and varieties but a beer should always be bitter to some extent. Now is it the level of bitterness your saying is unpleasant or the actual flavor of the bitterness that is unwanted?
Just trying to get a gauge on what exactly your not happy with

 

[TheWiggman]

Sound like I've confused people by trying to keep it short. I'll elaborate...

I don't really know what bitterness is as a taste, or more specifically, what profile I should be tasting. I described it as tart and yesterday someone tried my first successful AG brew and said "wow, it's bitter!" Without any real knowledge of beer flaws and tasters to demonstrate what is what, I'm assuming what I'm tasting is bitterness (as opposed to astringency, diacetyl, cloves etc.).

Yes, the "phenomenal" taste was sweet malty sugary goodness. Not beer, but bloody yummy. Better than the plastic rubbish that ruined every batch before it.

I'm completely aware that the purpose of the early additions is to add bitterness. I understand the chemistry loosely, how the alpha acids are the main measure in hop bitterness, and how IBU is critical for the recipe and it's relationship to AA.

What confuses me is that I tasted the last batch and noted the "tartness" as I described it, but only used 1 hop addition at 60 min for 30 IBU as per the recipe (taking my hops' AA into account). Still tastes much more bitter than what the commercial product does. May be to do with no chilling that batch.

I may be looking too much into it, but the crux of it is I like the taste of commercial 'bitter' beers but don't like the taste of this one after I boiled it. The bitterness overrides the other flavours in my opinion. I'm wondering a) if I've stuffed up somehow or b) if this is simply how real beers taste before they ferment and the flavours will balance themselves out.
I suppose I'll know in 4 or so weeks.

Yes, traditional English ale, St Austell's Hick's Special Draught. For a Pom mate of mine.

 

[TheWiggman]

... but pre-ferment wort will be different from post. An indication possibly but too many changes occur to give a totally accurate picture.

This mostly answers my question. Should have read harder the first time but I'm being distracted by a busy family.
I should probably note that my boil is vigorous (3600W element) and water hardness is 54 mg/l of CaCO3. Not sure if these will impact bitterness but I hear with some varieties they may.

 

[MaltyHops]

Sound like I've confused people by trying to keep it short. I'll elaborate...

I don't really know what bitterness is as a taste, ...

Go to an Asian grocer and get some of these bitter gourd puppies:



and you wont forget in a hurry what bitter is - stirfry them with garlic and break an egg over them like an omelette.

 

[elcarter]

I had so many of those dam cucumber / melon things in my food in Okinawa.

That bitterness Shit me to tears by the end of the trip kind of like my last no chill IPA,

 

[TheWiggman]

As a follow-up, I tried a bottle of this tonight, and I've had 6 all up over the weeks.
Gotta say, it's an ordinary beer. The worst I've made AG. The comments about the bitterness / strange taste post-boil have remained consistent in the final product. The recipe was discussed in this thread, and I'm not sure if it's a hop issue or grain bill. I said EKG above, but I now know I used Styrian Goldings accidentally. So doubled up on the Fuggles-type. Maybe this was the problem?
I'll chalk this one up to experience, very odd indeed.
My 2 AG beers since then have been very good so I have no idea what's at play here.