Belgian Strong Red, recipe critique

[technobabble66]

Planning on having a crack at a few stronger Belgian Ales. Not exactly true to style as i don't want them at 10% alc, rather ~6.5-7% alc.
I've had a go at making Belgian Candi Syrup (in another thread), and wanted to find an appropriate use for what i've made so far - basically along the caramelly and fruity lines, rather than the deeper, darker, roastier flavours. Also, i thought i'd just generally have a go at something a little more Amber or Red, instead of a straight Dark Strong Ale.
So, i've put this together after a fair bit of reading and perusal of other recipes on the internets.

Comments would be greatly appreciated, especially from those who've brewed Belgian Strongs.

Belgian Strong Red Ale

Vol = 24L
OG = 1.057
FG = 1.007
IBU = 21.8
EBC = 24.4
alc = 6.8%

4.00 kg (73%) Pilsner (Wey)
0.50 kg (9%) Munich 2 (Wey)
0.25 kg (4.5%) Amber (Simpsons) (instead of Biscuit)
0.15 kg (3%) Pale Crystal (Simpsons)
0.05 kg (1%) Melanoiden (Wey) (instead of Aromatic)
0.05 kg (1%) Acidulated (Wey)
0.50 kg (9%) Dark/Amber Candi Syrup

20g Hall Mitt (6.3%AA) @ FWH
15g EKG (4.5%AA) @20mins (cubed)
15g Select (5.0%AA) @20mins (cubed)

1.1gCaSO4 +1.3g MgSO4 + 2.3g CaCl2 into Mash
0.8gCaSO4 +1.0g MgSO4 + 1.8g CaCl2 +0.3g Citric acid into Sparge
0.5gCaSO4 +0.5g MgSO4 + 1.2g CaCl2 into Boil

Mash: 55/66/72/78 for 5/60/20/5
18L Mash
14L Sparge

Fermented with WLP-550, probably starting at 18°C, slowly ramping to 23-25°C over a few days.
-----------------------
Now, the main concern is the grist - is it too complicated or too simple??
One option is to drop, say, the Munich & Pale crystal, increase the Syrup & Pilsner to compensate. Or just straight Pilsner with syrup? Or go the other way and as is, plus add in a little Med crystal &/or Wheat.
I'm particularly not sure about the amount of syrup used - should it be more?
FWIW, i'm not really sure what the hell my syrup is "rated" as - Amber or Dark. Obviously makes this a bit more difficult. From the flavour, its probably a bit in between, maybe more Amber.

Thoughts??

 

[technobabble66]

No takers?? :mellow:

This'll most likely be brewed tomorrow, so any suggestions would be appreciated ASAP
Otherwise i'll just have to go with whatever seems right at the time :unsure:

 

[Mardoo]

Special B is not? Fruity it is, mmmmm.



I like the notion of Amber in there. Well one of my favourite malts ATM.

 

[technobabble66]

Special B.
Possession i have not.

h34r: :lol:

Also, i think it might be a bit too dark for what i'm after.
I know (& have lots of) CaraAroma is also meant to hit close to what i'm after, but in my limited experience it seems to be too dark and roasty. I may well learn later its exactly what i want, but recent experience suggests otherwise.

Yeah, i'm i big fan of Amber. And it's meant to be a general approximation of Biscuit, so it seemed a reasonable choice at the time.

 

[Mardoo]

You can have a couple of my five kilos…

 

[barls]

be aware that you will pick up colour from the candy sugar as well. aim for a light red.

 

[Blind Dog]

My experience is that most 'red' beers are actually a murky orangey-brown and font live up to the maltiness promised.

Caraaroma gives red, but (as you point out) gets roasty at more than a few percent. Roasted barley in tiny quantities can enhance a red beer, but (in my limited experience) it needs to be red in the first place.

Have you tried red X malt? Never used it in a Belgian, but as the main component in a red ESB it worked wonders (95% red X, 5% wheat). Great colour and the flavour delivered what the colour was promising, if that makes sense. The beer does need to be circa 1.050 plus for the red to really come through, but you're way above that already.

Just my 2c at 8pm and 4 pints sunk Friday arvo.

 

[MastersBrewery]

My experience is that most 'red' beers are actually a murky orangey-brown and font live up to the maltiness promised.

Caraaroma gives red, but (as you point out) gets roasty at more than a few percent. Roasted barley in tiny quantities can enhance a red beer, but (in my limited experience) it needs to be red in the first place.

Have you tried red X malt? Never used it in a Belgian, but as the main component in a red ESB it worked wonders (95% red X, 5% wheat). Great colour and the flavour delivered what the colour was promising, if that makes sense. The beer does need to be circa 1.050 plus for the red to really come through, but you're way above that already.

Just my 2c at 8pm and 4 pints sunk Friday arvo.

you need to go drinking with barls! nuf said

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks BD,
Yeah, i'd agree - most Reds struggle to live up to expectations - both for general maltiness and that nice touch of toastiness (but not roasty) i like in a Red. Or the strong but balanced caramel notes.

TBH, having said that, i'm still not decided if i want those malty & toasty notes, or more (solely?) the caramel notes in this Belgian Red. Obviously that's probably kinda important to decide before i choose a recipe

I haven't used Red X yet, but the descriptions i've heard from a few brewers i know who've tried it make it sound very promising for reliably nailing a Red in one fell swoop.
Again - i sadly don't have it, and i was hoping to make use of what i already have in stock - which is a fair range of grain, just not some of the special options for a belgian or a red. :unsure:
FWIW, Red X is ~30 EBC. Amber is ~50 EBC & Munich 2 is ~23 EBC. So i'm hoping that between the 2 of them they'll add a moderate amount of the typical Red Ale elements, and targeting a final wort colour of ~25 EBC should get it ~red. I've found the theoretically ideal target of 30 EBC, when calculated on a spreadsheet, to end up being too dark; so i'm going a little lower and hoping for the best!

 

[technobabble66]

You can have a couple of my five kilos…

thanks heaps Mardoo.
Will def take you up on that asap, though it'll have to be after this one

 

[technobabble66]

be aware that you will pick up colour from the candy sugar as well. aim for a light red.

thanks barls.
I entered the candy syrup as Belgian Amber Sugar in ianh's spreadsheet. I'm really not sure where in the yardstick of belgian candy sugar mine lies, so i'm hoping Amber is closer to the mark than Dark.
As such, it makes up almost half the colour depth even though it's only 9% of the ingredients.
So i'm hoping that in erring slightly low ~25 EBC wort colour, i may have a little leeway if my syrup is darker than i expect.

 

[Blind Dog]

Just remember that ebc / srm just measures how dark a beer is not necessarily what colour it is. An ebc 25 beer can just as easily be muddy brown as the deep ruby red you're (or to be honest, I was) aiming for

 

[manticle]

I'm not sure why you don't just take a tried and true dubbel recipe. Your candy will be appropriate, ibu level too. Abv for dubbel can be anywhere between 6-8 which is in line with yours.
Pils, maybe a tad of spec b (get some), your syrup added at the right points. Good yeast, good amounts, good management.
Unsurprisingly your recipe is overcomplicated.

 

[technobabble66]

Just remember that ebc / srm just measures how dark a beer is not necessarily what colour it is. An ebc 25 beer can just as easily be muddy brown as the deep ruby red you're (or to be honest, I was) aiming for

True, 25-30 EBC can be either brown/tan or red. I've a sneaking suspicion mine will be more brown/tan. but it'll hopefully be close to the right intensity of colour. TBH, i'll be more happy if the flavour is right, then i'll worry about the flavour. Also, having never had a belgian red, i'm kinda curious as to what this'll taste like...

 

[technobabble66]

I'm not sure why you don't just take a tried and true dubbel recipe. Your candy will be appropriate, ibu level too. Abv for dubbel can be anywhere between 6-8 which is in line with yours.
Pils, maybe a tad of spec b (get some), your syrup added at the right points. Good yeast, good amounts, good management.
Unsurprisingly your recipe is overcomplicated.

Thanks for pointing out what now seems kinda damn obvious. having just checked a Dubbel description...
TBH, i thought i'd scanned over Dubbels, and i'd slotted them in as a kind of a Dark Strong variant. I've just re-read the BJCP guidelines and they seem very close to what i'm hoping for - not as dark as i thought they were!
A minor tweak is that i'm after more of the raisins & caramel, rather than all the other elements; but it's definitely within the Dubbel specs, & a great line to pursue.

Another minor point is that there's only 1 recipe in the AHB recipe database for a dubbel.
Do you happen to have a good one?

FWIW, i was basing the initial recipe on other (non-Belgian) Red Ales, hence a few different ingredients.
Is there no way to avoid using spec B? Or is that pretty much the only way to achieve what i seem to be after? My only hesitation is that i've used CaraAroma before, and though i like it, it simply doesn't seem to achieve what i'm after in this beer (and I was guessing caraaroma and spec B were roughly similar)

But you're basically saying Pils, plus a single spec malt to add a little depth, then the special syrup, and that's it. Yes?

I know my obsession with using too many ingredients seems to be a consistent (annoying) theme, mants, but i honestly thought this was a reasonably cut-down version for a Red Ale And tbh, across the other recipes I've checked for what seems like a Reddish Belgian ale there's anywhere from 2 to 6 ingredients, plus the candi syrup.

Edit: I guess a major issue is I've never used nor tasted candi syrup before. So I'm not sure how much faith to put into mine - as to whether it'll provide enough flavour elements. So I suppose part of what I'm asking is what those who've brewed with it have found that it brings to the table? And does it need backing up with other malts, or just keep it simple and let it shine.
I'm assuming the latter is basically what manticle is saying (?) [emoji57]

 

[madpierre06]

Thanks for pointing out what now seems kinda damn obvious. having just checked a Dubbel description...
TBH, i thought i'd scanned over Dubbels, and i'd slotted them in as a kind of a Dark Strong variant. I've just re-read the BJCP guidelines and they seem very close to what i'm hoping for - not as dark as i thought they were!
A minor tweak is that i'm after more of the raisins & caramel, rather than all the other elements; but it's definitely within the Dubbel specs, & a great line to pursue.

Another minor point is that there's only 1 recipe in the AHB recipe database for a dubbel.
Do you happen to have a good one?

FWIW, i was basing the initial recipe on other (non-Belgian) Red Ales, hence a few different ingredients.
Is there no way to avoid using spec B? Or is that pretty much the only way to achieve what i seem to be after? My only hesitation is that i've used CaraAroma before, and though i like it, it simply doesn't seem to achieve what i'm after in this beer (and I was guessing caraaroma and spec B were roughly similar)

But you're basically saying Pils, plus a single spec malt to add a little depth, then the special syrup, and that's it. Yes?

I know my obsession with using too many ingredients seems to be a consistent (annoying) theme, mants, but i honestly thought this was a reasonably cut-down version for a Red Ale And tbh, across the other recipes I've checked for what seems like a Reddish Belgian ale there's anywhere from 2 to 6 ingredients, plus the candi syrup.

Edit: I guess a major issue is I've never used nor tasted candi syrup before. So I'm not sure how much faith to put into mine - as to whether it'll provide enough flavour elements. So I suppose part of what I'm asking is what those who've brewed with it have found that it brings to the table? And does it need backing up with other malts, or just keep it simple and let it shine.
I'm assuming the latter is basically what manticle is saying (?) [emoji57]

If you're not aware of it, there's a few dubbel recipes in the candi syrup site mate.

http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

 

[Reman]

You could use Special W

 

[Mardoo]

If you're not aware of it, there's a few dubbel recipes in the candi syrup site mate.

http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

Those are solid recipes. They trial them until they get them right.

 

[manticle]

Spec b plus whatever yeast you use and your candy if nade right are all that is needed.

Big belgian beers do need some special attention.
For me, it involves mostly a big pitch of healthy yeast, incremental sugar additions (rather than all at once) and cool fermentation at the start. I also like to cold condition for a few weeks or longer till all that yeast has dropped out.
I haven't used 550 but bers like dubbel are yeast driven so keep the grist and hopping reasonably simple.

 

[technobabble66]

Well, don't i feel like a goose
Going over all the Dubbel descriptions, it pretty much nails what i'm after. So what i should've done in hindsight was just research Dubbels & go from there. Aah well, better late than never!

I also can't believe i didn't think to check the CSI website for recipes. Duh! i was on it checking for recipes to match what i though i was after (i.e.: a paler beer, ~14 SRM, more like other malty Ambers i'm familiar with). Just kinda glanced at the Westie 8 recipe i think. Eeeediot!

So anywho, i've grabbed the 3 Dubbel recipes from there to peruse.
You wouldn't believe it, 2 of them only use 2 grains, and 1 uses 3 grains! h34r:

As a major bonus, i remembered last night someone at the Merri Mashers (2014 xmas bash, i believe) gave away a few little baggies of Dingemans Biscuit & Spec B. So i thought i'd scrounge around this morning and see if i'd grabbed a spec B as well as the Biscuit i knew i had. Bingo!! one bag of 200g Spec B!!
TBH, i wasn't sure how old the biscuit was, so i didn't initially choose to use it. But it sounds like it's more important than i'd assumed to use the belgian grains, esp the Spec B. And i'm hoping they're not too old, probably not much older than half my stock in a worst case. So if i'm needing to use the Spec B, i may as well consider the Biscuit also.
So huge thanks to whoever (sorry, bad memory!) donated these bags at the MM xmas case swap :icon_cheers:

And big thanks to the above posters for the advice. Most appreciated!

... So back to the drawing board, and i'll redo the recipe asap